Talk:Christ I

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Christ or Crist?

There are three pages for these three poems: Christ I, Christ II and Christ III. There is another page Crist, barely more than a disambiguation page, that refers to 'Crist I', 'Crist II' and 'Crist III', though the underlying links are to 'Christ I', '~II', and '~III.

The three 'Christ...' articles do not mention the spelling Crist, except for the links to Wikisource. The article Crist explains that Crist is the Old English form of Christ.

I have come to these articles having used Tolkien-related articles (eg Tolkien's legendarium), where the Crist-spelling predominates (as it does, by my observation, in Tolkien commentary and scholarship). Perhaps the fashion in naming has changed since Tolkien's time?

I don't know enough about OE or AS scholarship or sources to know which spelling should count as the 'common name' for WP purposes, but I do think it desirable that WP should be consistent. What needs to change to achieve that? -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 10:07, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, @Verbarson! I only just saw this. These poems have no titles in the manuscript: the titles are given by modern scholars. Thus although it was once fashionable to spell the titles as though they were Old English, this is misleading as it implies that the titles were actually composed during the Old English period. So I think we should keep the modern spelling for the titles, but add the Old-English-spelling titles to the lead. I'll work on the relevant pages later! Alarichall (talk) 05:08, 10 July 2026 (UTC)

Mary queen of heaven?

In the table under 'sources and structure,' it says that lyric 9 talks about Mary as 'Queen of heaven,' but if you look at the lines quoted, in both English and Latin, she is called a maeras of Midgard (I don't know what maeras is, google AI says noble or famous) and in Latin, a mistress of earth. In both languages, she is described as an important person in the context of earth, but not as a cosmic queen. This concept seems to have appeared later on in the history of the Church. We probably shouldn't be saying that this English poem is fully supporting the later doctrine of Mary being 'Queen of heaven' popularized by the Roman church in the second millennium. Caeciliushorto (talk) 00:05, 10 July 2026 (UTC)

I don't know much about theology, so am happy to be corrected, but the Wikipedia article for Queen of Heaven says that this idea was common in the early Church. The poem itself says "by thy holy might thou art the lady of the heavenly host, of all estates on earth under the heavens, and of such as dwell in hell". So this looks like straightforward "Queen of Heaven" imagery to me. But it's not a hill I'd die on! Alarichall (talk) 17:26, 10 July 2026 (UTC)

Maybe we should change the quotations then to the Latin and English bits that say 'lady of the heavenly host,' since the given quotes don't mean that. We could replace it with "sie hlafdige halgum meahtum Wuldor-weorudes," which I think means 'the holy lady by might of the heavenly hosts.' I found the old English test at this link: https://archive.org/details/cynewulfschrist00cyneuoft/page/26/mode/2up?q=thanes

lines 283-284 are the quoted ones.

For the latin quote, it would probably be "domina sacra vi caeliorum hostum," but that is me completely making it up from high-school latin, so I wouldn't quote it if I were you.

Since I have strong opinions about this subject, it is probably best if you make any changes to the article, because my distaste for Mary-veneration might bias whatever I write (I'm a protestant if you hadn't guessed haha). Caeciliushorto (talk) 09:03, 15 July 2026 (UTC)