Talk:Burgmann

Variations in the Empire

Knights and a ministerials were two very different arrangements - one free and one unfree - but both were nobles put to administrative tasks. Also, one must be very careful to avoid statements that lead the reader to believe any certain vassalage arrangement was standardized in the Holy Roman Empire. Practices varied - sometimes wildly - in different parts of the Empire, as Freed, Leyser and Ganshof noted (See the Sources used in the article on ministerialis). LTC (Ret.) David J. Cormier (talk) 17:37, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

It's good to work together on this. The original article was largely a translation of the one at German Wikipedia where it says that Burgmann was used from the 12th century to describe ritterbürtige Ministerialen und Mitglieder des Adels i.e. "noble-born ministeriales and members of the aristocracy" which isn't quite how this article now reads. In general, ministeriales were administrative officials who later became nobles ("unfree knights") and, over time, de facto hereditary knights. But you're right the picture is not uniform, the HRE was a patchwork quilt of territories and practices albeit with an overarching structure and laws to which more or less attention might be paid. --Bermicourt (talk) 18:29, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Ganshof and Leyser have well withstood the tests of time, Arnold notwithstanding. Darn near anything by Freed is very readable and insightful, but he does tend to focus on Salzburg. Ganshof, François-Louis. “Benefice and Vassalage in the Age of Charlemagne.” Cambridge Historical Journal 6, No. 2 (1939): 147-175. Leyser, Karl. “The German Aristocracy from the Ninth to the Early Twelfth Century: A Historical and Cultural Sketch.” Past & Present 41, (Dec., 1968): pp. 25-53. Leyser, Karl. “Henry I and the Beginnings of the Saxon Empire.” The English Historical Review 83, No. 326 (Jan., 1968): pp. 1-32.