Talk:Bumin Qaghan

A question and a remark

• The name of Wei princess Bumin married has been given as Wei Chang'le. Most other sources (other than Wiki) give the name as Wei Chang. Which is correct ? (In Modern Turkish 'le means with.)
• I know certain books identify Avars of Europe as expelled Juan Juan tribes. But others disagree. I feel this uncertainity should be quoted in the article.

Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Changle

She was one of daughters of Emperor Xiaowen of Northern Wei and Empress Wenzhao (孝文昭皇后高氏 (高照容)). And there is no relation with modern Turkish word "le". Her father was Xianbei and mother was a refugee from Goguryeo. And Gao Zhao is the brother of her mother. Takabeg (talk) 08:59, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Blacksmith Slave

According Zhou Shu, this term was used for Rouran qagan Anagui, this does not mean Turkic people who was "blacksmith slave" (鍛奴 / 锻奴, Pinyin: duàn nú, Wade-Giles: tuan-nu) under the sovereignty of Rouran Khaganate.--CenkX (talk) 09:01, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Anagui used this term. But academicians deal this term not only Anagui's personal view in Identifying reliable sources. You can read sources. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 09:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Amongst those "sources" I can not see annoted any primary sources, but only comments, the oldest of them dated back 1957. The Chinese historical records are very clear, this term was used for Tumen by Rouran qagan. What you trying to do, to call all Turkic tribes as "slaves", you need more than this.--CenkX (talk) 09:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

This word indicated that these tribes engaged with metallurgy. Maybe you don't like this word. But academicians use this word not only Anagui's word but also droad senses. They use it with double quotation. We also use it with double quatation. Censorship is harmful for science. Takabeg (talk) 10:29, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

"blacksmith slave", 鍛奴 / 锻奴, "demirci köle"

In English: "blacksmith slave", in Turkish: "demirci köle", this term is normal used in books and articles. For example in these books term they don't use for Anagui's personal view but common use. Someone explains that this term probably means vassal. But they aslo use "blacksmith slave"

• Denis Sinor, Inner Asia: history-civilization-languages : a syllabus, Routledge, 1997, ISBN 9780700703807, p. 26. Contacts had already begun in 545 A.D. between the so-called "blacksmith-slave" Türk and certain of the small petty kingdom of north China,

• 馬長壽, 《突厥人和突厥汗國》, 上海人民出版社, 1957, (Ma Zhangshou, Tujue ve Tujue Khaganate), pp. 10-11.

• 陳豐祥, 余英時, 《中國通史》, 五南圖書出版股份有限公司, 2002, ISBN 9789571128818 (Chen Fengxiang, Yu Yingshi, General history of China), p. 155.

• Gao Yang, "The Origin of the Turks and the Turkish Khanate", X. Türk Tarih Kongresi: Ankara 22 - 26 Eylül 1986, Kongreye Sunulan Bildiriler, V. Cilt, Türk Tarih Kurumu, 1991, s. 731.

• Burhan Oğuz, Türkiye halkının kültür kökenleri: Giriş, beslenme teknikleri, İstanbul Matbaası, 1976, p. 147. «Demirci köle» olmaktan kurtulup reisleri Bumin'e...

• 張豈之, 王子今, 方光華, 秦汉魏晋南北朝史, 五南圖書出版股份有限公司, 2002, ISBN 9789571128702, p. 463.

• Larry W. Moses, "Relations with the Inner Asian Barbarian", ed. John Curtis Perry, Bardwell L. Smith, Essays on Tʻang society: the interplay of social, political and economic forces, Brill Archive, 1976, ISBN 9789004047617, p. 65. Slave' probably meant vassalage to the Juan Juan confederation of Mongolia, whom they served in battle by providing iron weapons, and also marching with qaghan's armies.

• Asian Pacific quarterly of cultural and social affairs

• Ritual, state, and history in South Asia: essays in honour of J.C. Heesterman

• Son of heaven and heavenly Qaghan

• Al-Hind the Making of the Indo-Islamic World: The Slave Kings and the Islamic Conquest : 11Th-13th Centuries
• Mircea Eliade, Charles J. Adams, The Encyclopedia of religion, Vol. 7, Macmillan, 1987, ISBN 9780029094808, p. 243.

Takabeg (talk) 10:54, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

You are my blacksmith slave. How dare you utter these words ?

For Anagui's message, we can use these sources:

• Book of Zhou Vol. 50.
• History of Northern Dynasties, Vol. 99.
• Zizhi Tongjian, Vol. 164.
• Mircea Eliade, Charles J. Adams, The Encyclopedia of religion, Vol. 7, Macmillan, 1987, ISBN 9780029094808, p. 243.
• Christopher I. Beckwith, Empires of the Silk Road: a history of Central Eurasia from the Bronze Age to the present, Princeton University Press, 2009, ISBN 9780691135892, p. 9.

Takabeg (talk) 11:25, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Denis Sinor doesnt seems to me speaking of "Turkic people", what he means with Turk, is actually Bumin Kagan. Likewise, Eliade also state this term were used by Rouran ruler to insult Bumin. Besides, your claim that 'the term "blacksmith-slave" probably means vassal' is unfounded. There is no primary source mentioning this kind of usage of the word. If there is any other "blacksmith slave nations", then state here? Your references above are misleading, please dont "books.google" and write everything listed as if they are supporting your personal views. You have to spent more time to really understand what is written in those books.--CenkX (talk) 01:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Besides that, it is very problematic to identify Bumin as a "Turk" in modern sense. As pointed out by P. Golden and A. Róna-Tas, it is very likely that the term "Turk" is in fact a later form of the original Sogdian or Khotan Saka word "turukä", meaning "lid" or "helmet", hence adopted into Tibetan as "druga" for later "Turks". It should also be noted that in all sources - without any exception - the Ashia are identified as blacksmiths, while the Turkic peoples were still nomads without any functioning industry (be it the art of a blacksmith) until the eventual rise of Islamicized Turkic dynasties. Almost all Turkic military and royal titles are Non-Turkic in origin, so are the names of all Göktürk rulers, including "Bumin". See de:Aschina for an excellent summary. Tajik (talk) 11:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

using a iranian word doesnt make you iranian. All ottoman sultans except orkhan had arabic names (33/34), had arabic titles and bureau words. does that mean ottomans were arabic? of course no. Also Gokturk tit les like baghatur, tegin, erkin, köl, kül, yigen, yigen,tonga, khan, khagan, shad, tigin, tudun are all Turkic origin. I also saw you spreading pro iranian tajik bs/nonse on otjer turkic pages. keep your bs to yourself eastern persian. 88.254.6.246 (talk) 11:20, 16 August 2025 (UTC)

88.254.6.246 - Adding personal attacks like you did to the end of your message above will get you blocked if this continues. This behavior is uncivil and will not be tolerated. Please focus your input, thoughts, and responses toward the article and its content - not toward other users. Thank you - ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 11:23, 16 August 2025 (UTC)

also here is a quick explanation to prove his sons had all turkic names.,

bumin is turkic and means 'owl'

muhan is turkic and means 'tough'

qara issiq is turkic and means 'black river'

istemi is turkic and means 'soul of the apa/ata'

böri is turkic and means 'wolf'

taspar is unknown origin, most likely means 'praised or self-liking' in turkic

ishbara is turkic or indian means 'king'

as you can see, all of his sons had turkic names.

Also another group of turks known as sabirs at this time were alrrady doing blacksmitth stuff. Besides doing blacksmithery and metallurgy was common everywhere. Withiout metallurgy yhow are you even supposed to fight and make weapons? ITs not a hard thing and easily learn-able. You can look Bilge Qaghan and Tonyukuk's metal accessories made by Gokturks and not by tajiks thank you. Turks also built cities and lived in them. Balnadzhar, Bulgar, Ezegel, Isgil, Otuken, Balasahun are cities built by turks. You can read Mahmud Kashgari's work 'Diwan' about how Oghuz Turks were lazy people living in cities withiout engaging in nomadic lifestyle like other Turks for centuries. Being nomadic doesnt make you less intelligent. Turkic people were already excellent in building small cities, bots, shipd and doing metallurgy.

ALSO, @Oshwah literally the wikipedia page for tajiks itself say they are eastern persians. since when Calling an eastern persian 'eastern persian' is an insult ? Im just not tolerating this guys bs about how he claims we nomadic barbarians dont know anything and borrowed everthing from his excellent settled ancestors. 88.254.6.246 (talk) 11:40, 16 August 2025 (UTC)

88.254.6.246 - Do you really believe that what you said above, stating that another user's edits were "iranian tajik bs/nonse" and then telling them to "keep your bs to yourself", was civil? ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 12:03, 16 August 2025 (UTC)

This was not his first time. He is just adding his own biased opinion. I saw him (or othrr users with similar names) several times saying turks borrowed everything from his ancestors, as if his ancestors even existed at that time. They werent even mentioned until much later. People lIke that user is unable to understand that nomadic people can exist without his 'civilized' ancestors influencing and 'civilizing' nomads. These people think nomads are uneducated cavemen with low intelligience and tha t our lives are depended on his 'settled ancestors' as if we cant do stuff on our own. 176.237.30.66 (talk) 14:04, 16 August 2025 (UTC)

Name of the article

His name is accepted widespread as Bumin Khagan. Khagan is the most accepted form. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khagan Please correct the name of the article. Sbasturk (talk) 07:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

See Talk:Bilge Qaghan Takabeg (talk) 11:00, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Contradicting Information

So this page says Bumin's sons are Issik, Muqan, Taspar, Mahan, Kutou and Rudan. Taspar was born from Changle and othes born from earlier Turkic wives. Bumin married Princess Changle in 552. At that time Issik and Mukan were already adults and had sons ( Issik had Bagha and Ishbara and Mukan had Apa Qaghan. ) And i assume Rudan, Mahan, Kutou were already adults as well or at least teenagers since Bumin died less then a year after marrying Changle. Changle had just one son, Taspar. This means Taspar is the youngest son. According to Gokturk son succeeds father and in return gets succeded by his younger brother, who gets succeddd by another brother and so on. Bumin got succeded by his first son Issik, then second son Mukan, then why Mukan is succeded by his youngest brother Taspar and not older brothers Mahan, Rudan and Kutou? 78.174.223.135 (talk) 10:31, 29 October 2025 (UTC)

Legacy

The legacy part says that 'The Tariat Inscriptions from the Uyghur Khaganate period mention a certain Bumin Qaghan,[36] but due to severe damage to the stone face, it cannot be confirmed if this Bumin Qaghan is indeed him'.

Im pretty sure its the same person,

1. There is only one qaghan named Bumin

2. The inscriptions (made around 760 or 770 CE) says this Bumin Qaghan lived 200~ years ago and was the Qaghan of Turuk El. Bumin lived roughly 220 years before this inscriptions made and Turuk El was the official name of Gokturk State.

3. I m pretty sure Istemi Yabghu (brother of Bumin) is also mentioned somewhere in the insciptions.

So yeah I m pretty sure its the same Bumin. ~2025-35309-09 (talk) 10:02, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

The assertion that Bumin Qaghan cannot be positivity identified is based on what is written in Geng 2005, and Wikipedia works off of what sources say not off of what editors can put to gether, see WP:OR. That being said I having trouble finding Geng 2005 to check this, I'm almost certain it exists I just can't find it at the moment. DervotNum4 (talk) 16:10, 22 November 2025 (UTC)