Talk:Buffalo Public Schools

List

I think a list of Buffalo Public Schools would be justified for this page Johnny-Who? 18:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Assessment

I am assessing this article for Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools. The references in this article need to be cleaned-up a bit, with inline citations using <ref> tags rather than inserting links by the content, with reference templates used if possible, see WP:CITE and WP:CITET. The school list also needs to be cleaned-up. What are remarks such as "PS 53" and "@28" supposed to mean? Some parts of the article also come off as rather promotional, while awards e.t.c. can be stated, try to keep promotional language to a minimum. CT Cooper · talk 14:33, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Split immediately

Why? This page is far, far too long--over 20 times longer than the recommended length. This needs to be split into articles about the individual schools themselves with this article about the public school system. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:39, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

It is actually the longest page in all of Wikipedia. (Special:LongPages) T.c.w7468 (talk) 03:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

This article was duplicating a LOT of content from individual school articles already. I've removed those bits and merged a lot to individual articles for high schools, but our current notability standards don't really allow individual articles for elementary schools or middle schools. The article is now about 320k in size (down from almost 430k this morning before I started on it), which is still too large for many browsers. I'm open to ideas about how to condense the size of this article further, given that we can't split out elementary schools or (I think) defunct schools. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 17:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The reason I put all the information into the larger article is because elementary and junior high schools generally don't have their own pages. Perhaps splitting the sections into articles about the elementary and secondary schools, or operating or defunct schools will work. As the author of the new content (I didn't realize it was so much), I'm open to suggestions, so long as the content I added is preserved, as it involved many hours of research and citations. --D-Day (talk) 18:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Selected former principals and assistant principals

Is this content, including the previous and succeding jobs for each person, really needed for the encyclopedia? It seems excessive and unlikely to be of significant interest even to people currently associated with the school. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:05, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

sea of red, notability

it would seem this article suffers from too many uncreated pages to marginally notable topics. these are going to be trimmed for readability, and you're encouraged to create pages and re-link. Saintstephen000 (talk) Saintstephen000 (talk) 17:57, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Allegations of coverup

All of the citations for this appear to be local news reports about one guy showing up on a podcast, and the story seems to fit neatly into the anti-school mass hysteria that's been drummed up by the MAGA crowd for the past years. Serious accusations like this need better citations. 46.97.170.73 (talk) 18:04, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello? Can anyone weigh in on this? 46.97.170.73 (talk) 15:05, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

that "one guy" is a highly reputable/well know SVU detective (Richard Hy). he brought up concerns about the fact the board of the school and teachers are covering up abuse and negligence towards the children they watch over. so far it seems like all of his claims have been credible, with more being uncovered. 35.151.217.57 (talk) 04:09, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

There has been an attorney retained by over a dozen alleged victims. Not sure what child abuse has to do with "MAGA." 2600:1015:B01C:49A8:0:4E:39E4:CF01 (talk) 04:52, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

I agree with the original commenter above. I went ahead and removed some of the less substantiated and tangential details from this overly long section. I moved a couple of sentences mention Hy's accusations on the podcast into the previous section. It is newsworthy, so some mention of it makes sense. But it does not make sense for it take up so much space in the article, especially when a great deal of time is dedicated to issues of questionable relevance, such as BPS's relation with Buffalo police. COI disclosure: I am a parent of a student in Buffalo Public Schools. Yennefog (talk) 17:35, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Hello, I've seen your message on my talk page regarding a manual revert I did to most of your edits in this section. Thank you for being willing to discuss this despite WP:COI (though quick reminder that such editing is generally discouraged), and apologies for not noticing your discussion on this talk page earlier as well. While some of the added info on Richard Hy's background is fine in my opinion (hence why I opted to manually revert and keep some content), I primarily find fault in that much of the issues you have removed are not tangential to the article:

• The addition of the claim that BPS officials and attorneys obstructed evidence and ignored subpoenas directly mentions BPS, and is not something that I think is reasonable to consider tangential.

• The view count for the first Unsubscribe Podcast video is relevant by showcasing the reach of the allegations, though it's probably fine just to lump it in with another sentence.

• Details regarding Shane Cronin are not something I can find as tangential as the sources for that sentence indicate that his charges are directly referenced by Hy's obstruction allegations.

• Hy's statement about the Erie County DA and the DA's refusal to comment on investigations is relevant as it is a citation that Hy uses to back up his claim.

• The reporting regarding the lack of SRO agreement is in my opinion not tangential due to the video reporting on the article directly referencing its origin being from following Hy's allegations (quickly edited this in cause I forgot to finifh), though I would agree that the paragraph in its current form lacks the current WP:WEIGHT to take up so much space, and should most likely be condensed. I would appreciate input on how to do so.

Best regards, UppercutPawnch (talk) 22:49, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm going to just respond in one comment to both of yours, in the interest of keeping things simple.

- Re: the potential COI. @TonySt was kind enough to counsel me on this on my talk page, and was of the opinion that my situation does not in fact constitute a COI. I have a child enrolled in Buffalo Public Schools, but that is the extent of the affiliation. I am not an employee or volunteer or anything of the sort. My relationship begins and ends with availing myself of a public service.

- I do agree with you that the lack of a standardized SRO agreement is noteworthy information. Clarifying the relationship between the schools, the police, and various other security officers that work in the schools is something that is lacking from this page. I do not know of the Richard Hy situation is the right context to bring it up, though. It seems like an association fallacy in this context, by implying a causal relationship between SROs (or lack thereof) and Hy's allegations.

- I did not realize, when I first started these edits, that Richard Hy has his own page here. Most of the content I removed/edited seems to be duplicated there, including his record of misconduct. I would propose removing he mention of his misconduct as well as most of the details of his unsubstantiated allegations, and link to the page dedicated to him. This is noteworthy, but I think only warrants a sentence or two, given that this information is available on his page, and really more relevant there.

- I am on the fence about Shane Cronin. It does not seem particularly significant to me, given that the situation was resolved.

- I do not know think the number of hits on a podcast is a good standard for credibility.

- I would be interested to hear what you and others think. Yennefog (talk) 12:16, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Just chiming in since I was pinged, but when I shared that information on Yennefog's talk page it was because I wasn't sure if they were working at BPS, which would definitely be a COI. I'm not sure (looks like I said "maybe?" back then) of whether being the guardian of a student at BPS is a conflict of interest. The COI guidelines talk about external relationships in this way:

Any external relationship [...] can trigger a COI. How close the relationship needs to be before it becomes a concern on Wikipedia is governed by common sense.

The relationship at least might be a COI, so it's worth it to be careful to follow the COI guidelines just to be safe. —tony 12:44, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

I have a couple of thoughts in response to your statements, in order of your bullet points but skipping the first one about COI:

• While I see your point about the association fallacy in placing the info with Hy's allegations, the video format provided in the source cited for this info directly (https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/education/buffalo-schools-police-department-dont-have-an-agreement-in-place-for-sro-services/71-1e252854-db1f-43cf-bff5-019344ef6d8e) mentions that this reporting was done in the wake of Hy's allegations. Given that this is a history section above all else, I'm not sure that it is feasible to include this in another position in the article while continuing to maintain chronological order necessary for a history section.

• An interesting proposal, but one I disagree with due to the reporting on the lack of SRO agreement from a reliable source without the direct involvement of Hy in its research as well as the situation developing independent of Hy. I would also like to note that regardless of if Hy's claims are substantiated, they are claims which have been reported on by reliable sources and in which BPS has hired an independent investigator (https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/buffalo/attorney-to-file-legal-complaint-against-buffalo-public-schools-alleges-failed-abuse-reporting) and in which legal action has been filed in response to (https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/buffalo/attorney-to-file-legal-complaint-against-buffalo-public-schools-alleges-failed-abuse-reporting). Whether or not the claims are substantiated are not an issue of whether or not they should be included as they have had a direct impact on actions taken by and towards the school district.

• Shane Cronin has been reported as an example used by Hy to substantiate his claims (https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/man-indicted-accused-of-trying-to-kidnap-a-buffalo-public-school-student). Despite the situation being resolved (assuming you are referring to him being charged), it is still relevant to this specific situation.

• Including the view count of the podcast is not meant to establish credibility or give the perception of such, it is meant to display the reach of the allegations Hy made. Wikipedia is not a place for establishing or de-establishing credibility or providing editorial bias on a subject, and I am not personally trying to do so. See WP:NPOV.

Additionally, seeing as you didn't respond to these points earlier, may I ask if you believe that the allegations of obstruction of evidence and ignoring subpoenas as well as the section on the Erie County DA are reasonable to include? In any case, I'm going to go ahead and link Hy's name on this article since he has one of his own.

UppercutPawnch (talk) 07:18, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

Howdy @Yennefog, it's been a while and I haven't seen any response from you. I will assume the issues you did not bring up following my initial reply are points of contention and will be adding them to the page shortly. Would appreciate it if you could respond at some point within the week to the other points. Will add them after a week or so if you don't respond or another user does not bring up issues with any of these points. UppercutPawnch (talk) 22:44, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Hi @UppercutPawnch, sorry for the silence. Your reply got lost in my inbox and life got ahead of me. I think I can respond to most of your points above with my concern about WP:WEIGHT. Although there are news outlets that have reported on Hy's allegations, all of them are more or less just conveying his statements. None of them are investigations in their own right, just reportage on what Hy said. As such, in practice, the sole source of info for much of this is Hy himself.

The gist is, this is more information about Hy (they're statements he made), and make more sense on his page in his list of social media controversies.

I think a brief mention of Hy's allegation is appropriate. But I don't think this rises to the level of useful information. And I think including it so prominently infringes on WP:NPOV.

Again, I would welcome the input of others. You and I have been having a bit of back and forth, and some other perspectives might be clarifying. Yennefog (talk) 16:11, 15 July 2025 (UTC)

While the concerns you have do not seem to be covered or regarded by WP:WEIGHT, so I do not see why this concern would prevent their inclusion. Regardless, let's go over each relevant citation from this diff - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Buffalo_Public_Schools&diff=1297793393&oldid=1297645945

9. https://www.wivb.com/news/local-news/buffalo/buffalo-public-schools-responds-to-allegations-of-not-reporting-sexual-assaults-abuse/ - This one additionally discusses Hy's disciplinary history and obtained a further statement from the Erie County DA.

10. https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/education/buffalo-police-officer-alleges-abuse-coverup-buffalo-schools/71-16b00f64-8bec-4813-a54b-0071114b7b6a - This article attempted to receive comment from Buffalo PD, reported on the School Board holding a meeting in response, and also quotes a statement from the DA.

11. https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/education/buffalo-police-officer-alleges-abuse-coverup-buffalo-schools/71-16b00f64-8bec-4813-a54b-0071114b7b6a - This discusses the reach the podcast obtained online, the (at the time) planned School Board Meeting, Hy's disciplinary records, and showcases an interview they did with Hy in addition to his Unsubscribe Podcast allegations.

12. https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/local/another-podcast-installment-rips-buffalo-schools-union-responds-claims-of-abuse-case-cover-ups/71-b4c8c5cb-b4ab-491b-9c7a-ae8a020db704 - This one further researches Hy's claims with data obtained from BPS and obtains a statement from an attorney representing BPS and the Teacher's Union.

13. https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/man-indicted-accused-of-trying-to-kidnap-a-buffalo-public-school-student - This one in mainly about Cronin, mentioning Hy as side information.

14. https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/news/2025/05/06/man-accused-of-kidnapping-student-from-buffalo-public-school-to-be-arraigned-wednesday - Same as 13.

15. https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/buffalo/more-accusations-made-in-podcasts-against-buffalo-school-district - This one also interviews the Teacher's Association President and has a video about the results of the previously mentioned school board meeting.

16. https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/education/buffalo-schools-police-department-dont-have-an-agreement-in-place-for-sro-services/71-1e252854-db1f-43cf-bff5-019344ef6d8e - This is hardly about Hy, this is just the one article that investigated the SRO agreement that resulted from the controversy.

UppercutPawnch (talk) 06:01, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

"Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery."

I think dedicating half of the history section to one man's allegations, which have been amplified by anonymous editors and vandals on the BPS page, certainly qualifies as undue weight. Hy is not a credible source, and I think one sentence is enough to cover his allegations. I stand by the fact that the SRO issue and Cronin are tangentially related.

The text as is, to me, feels like a compromise position. I think the article would be improved by cutting out the Hy material altogether. He has his own page. His allegations can join the long list of other abuses and wild claims he has made over the last 15 years. But I understand that Wikipedia runs on consensus, and I understand that others (or you, at least) think that some of this material is relevant to the topic of Buffalo Public Schools.

So far, you seem very invested in refuting all my suggestions. I would ask, what edits would you propose making to the text as it stands right now? Yennefog (talk) 13:02, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

Ah, I had forgotten about the previous arguments of tangentiality you had mentioned regarding the Cronin and SRO sources before this argument went stale and got too caught up in the arguing over relevancy as opposed to weight. Looking at the current page, I would agree this is a compromise position and have no further changes to make. I disagree with the outright removal of this section as I think it is less of a WP: WEIGHT issue and more of a general lack of coverage given the section of history before this dates dates to the 1900 at latest. UppercutPawnch (talk) 04:11, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

Glad we agreed on a compromise position on this. Filling in the history from 1900 to present is my plan for this page. Since this material will be much less contentious than the current discussion, I am not so concerned about a maybe-COI. I am going to move forward with working on it gradually. Have already been working on some other improvements to this long-neglected page (e.g. the budget listed had not been updated since 2009). Yennefog (talk) 17:37, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

I added additional information about allegations of misconduct against Hy, which were found to be credible by the AG office shortly before he made the allegations on his podcast. I think this adds context with which users can decide whether or not he is a credible source. Am open to feedback and criticism here, if others think this info is tangential. Yennefog (talk) 19:01, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

While I don't find this tangential on it's own, I feel that the method is tangential as the subsequent source in the same sentence also mentions Hy's negative disciplinary history while also remaining relevant to the subject at hand as opposed to just injecting it in to display potential bias. UppercutPawnch (talk) 22:52, 1 July 2025 (UTC)