Talk:Botha

Origin of the name? I assume it is originally Dutch? Who was/were the original settlers who took the name to Africa? Drutt (talk) 22:42, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Repeated addition of PW Botha

Howzit all.

With regards as to why PW Botha and Boer figure Louis Botha are missing from the initial list of notable Bothas - they descended from a separate line (that of Appel and Kickers) and are related only by Maria Kickers' later marriage to Botha. That is covered in its own separate section below. Please refrain from repeatedly adding either of the two to the first list without justification.

Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 04:55, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Can't be serious

So the 18th century Botha is the ancestor to 76,125 Bothas today? How is this known other than by a mere guess? Prinsgezinde (talk) 18:25, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Census records. Using the census to extrapolate that kind of a figure would be far, far more difficult to justify if the surname were "Smith" or "Ford" or some other surname that could have multiple potential origins. In the case of "Botha", it's an extremely unique surname that is found almost exclusively in South Africa among a small population pool and has a well-documented, single progenitor. All Bothas in South Africa share at least one progenitor, similar to how all Viljoens share a single pair of progenitors. --Katangais (talk) 18:45, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation

@Sol505000 and Katangais: In this edit, Sol505000 added this:

pronounced /ˈbʊərtə/ in non-rhotic dialects of English

This is strange. I suspect that what is being described here is a rhotic speaker's perception of an r in a non-rhotic speaker's mouth because Botha would be pronunced exactly the same as a (hypothetical) Bortha. In sources on pronunciation I've looked at, none mention a pronunciation bʊərtə. In any case, it is also strange to mention the pronunciation in non-rhotic dialects, but not that in rhotic dialects. --Macrakis (talk) 20:49, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

Per Help:IPA/English, what you should expect in the sources is /ˈbʊətə/. It's not possible to transcribe the non-rhotic /ʊə/ in the traditional using the WP:DIAPHONEMIC system used on Wikipedia, you have to write it /ʊər/. The pronunciation transcribed is the South African one, which is just a slightly anglicized Afrikaans pronunciation. If it doesn't occur at all in the UK, then we should narrow the variety down to SAE - but bear in mind that many, many words with /ʊər/ have an alternative pronunciation with /ɔːr/ (again, transcribed /ʊə ~ ɔː/ except before /r/), except when the alternative is /uːr/ (mostly before a sounded intervocalic /r/) or sometimes /uːə/ (but both of those are covered by /ʊər/ in our guide as well).

Also, it's not strange to omit GA if you don't know the pronunciation. Guessing would be worse. My best guess is /ˈboʊtə/. Sol505000 (talk) 21:12, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

That seems contradictory. If you're transcribing a pronunciation specific to a dialect, I don't see that it makes sense to use a diaphonemic system to do it. --Macrakis (talk) 22:22, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

Per WP:DIAPHONEMIC it's our normal practice. It could potentially be a good idea to create a separate guide for South African English as there are phones specific to that dialect that are mostly confined to loans from Afrikaans, such as /a/ (from Afrikaans short /a/) that's potentially distinct from STRUT and /o/ (from Afrikaans /o/, also transcribed /ɔ/ but it's the same thing) (a shortened THOUGHT vowel) that's usually distinct from LOT (/o/ is higher and more rounded) and FOOT (/o/ is backer and somewhat lower and possibly also more rounded). But I think that South Africans usually say /ˈbʊətə/, with a final /ə/, rather than /ˈbʊəta/ - it's thus fully nativized. I'm open to corrections though. Sol505000 (talk) 11:43, 3 April 2026 (UTC)

That's not the way I read WP:DIAPHONEMIC. The phrase "in non-rhotic dialects of English" says that it is describing a specific set of accents, and the guideline for that case is:

If the pronunciation in a specific accent is desired, square brackets may be used, perhaps with a link to IPA chart for English dialects, which describes several national standards

--Macrakis (talk) 17:02, 3 April 2026 (UTC)

"Non-rhotic dialects" is not a specific accent, though. I don't see how WP:DIAPHONEMIC doesn't apply here. You're free to add GA, Scottish or any other major rhotic accent out there. Sol505000 (talk) 17:05, 3 April 2026 (UTC)

I would argue that that clause applies. It is peculiar to describe the pronunciation of a word in a group of non-rhotic accents using a notation containing an /r/, which is not pronounced in any of those accents (by definition), but simply modifies the vowel quality. --Macrakis (talk) 18:00, 3 April 2026 (UTC)

It links to a guide where it explicitly says that /ʊər/ is to be interpreted as [ʊə] before consonants and pauses in such dialects. It may also be [ɔː] but probably not in this word and not in South Africa in general (they're consistent in treating the long O of Afrikaans as /ʊə/). And I'm pretty sure that the traditional UK pronunciation is /ˈbʊətə/ as well, mirroring the South African one. The current SSB realization would probably be /ˈbuː(ə)tə/ or /ˈbəʊtə/ but I'm not sure. Sol505000 (talk) 18:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)

I don't disagree there -- of course "{IPA|/ʊər/}} is to be interpreted as [ʊə] ... in such dialects".

I guess I could understand the presence of the /r/ if it affected the vowel quality or quantity somehow, e.g., as [ʊːə] or [ʊː]. But you're saying that it is pronounced precisely [ʊə], so why not write [ʊə]?

But even in that case, since there is no historical or orthographic motivation to treat the pronunciation as somehow related to an underlying /r/, it seems wrong to introduction the /r/ diaphoneme. --Macrakis (talk) 21:32, 3 April 2026 (UTC)

The diaphoneme is /ʊər/, historically /uːr/, not /r/. The /r/ does affect the vowel quality, historically. It's the same how the historical /ɔr, ɔːr/ in Danish create a new phoneme /ɒː/, which is distinct from /ɔː/. South Africans just took this /ʊə/ and applied it to words with Afrikaans /oː/ (or /uə/ - however you choose to write this one and the same phoneme). Same with /ɪə/ used for Afrikaans /eː/ (also written /iə/). Sol505000 (talk) 22:16, 3 April 2026 (UTC)