Talk:Bethsaida

Comments

The entry Bethsaida as it appears here is updated to 1987 before the excavations at Bethsaida begun. The entry does not mention anything of the 19 years of thorough excavations at the site. Grade of entry: F.

Dr. Rami Arav Director, Bethsaida Excavations Project

Dr. Arav, it would then be in order for you to update the page, especially since you are "Director, Bethsaida Excavations Project." Soonercary (talk) 03:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Bethsaida Project

I'm surprised the Bethsaida Project isn't mentioned here or in connection with the UN at Omaha. Nice or in evil (talk) 20:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC) Bethsaida Project

Link before is meanwhile dead. See this instead University of Nebraska Omaha Sandkuhle (talk) 12:44, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, the article needs a complete rewrite. A starting point might be the article "Et-Tell is Not Bethsaida", by R Steven Notley, Near Eastern Archaeology; Dec 2007; 70, 4; 220-230 and the citations within. For one thing, it is proved beyond doubt that et-Tell was not on the shore of Lake Tiberias in New- Testamental times. Zero^talk 10:25, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

The sentence "most likely located at et-Tell, a ruined site on the east side of the Jordan on rising ground, 2 km from the sea" must be mistaken, since the Jordan itself is circa 50km from the sea, and anything to the east of it will be further away than that. The link to Et-Tell has been questioned elsewhere based on the description in this article, since Et-Tell is, say 40kmn from the sea (and to the west of the river). So, yes. Not a very hopeful start for the article. --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The article needs to be COMPLETELY REWRITTEN and RESTRUCTURED

ARTICLE IS A MESS. It's primarily supposed to offer a good, concise explanation of the term, AT LEAST IN THE LEAD, and NOT to present a sophisticated theological-geographical-historical mini-tractate. Even less so if based on massively outdated sources! Imagine you're a traveller or first-year student looking for an explanation for the term. It's uttterly useless as it is now.Arminden (talk) 10:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)Arminden

You aren't wrong! Zero^talk 10:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the flowers. Does anyone have the time togo and copy a bit :) from https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/bethsaida-beth-saida ?Arminden (talk) 10:50, 12 May 2015 (UTC)Arminden

Zero, that map you just made for me, it has something to do with this article as well. If you can take a few weeks off to plow through this book, which I used for a brief note in Jacob ben Abraham Zaddiq, I'm sure you can redo this article some. Maybe you and Dimadick can get together over hot chocolate and hammer it out. Drmies (talk) 16:46, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Wait--from your wording in the Zaddiq article I can see you looked at this book already, and are probably re-organizing the logistics of your Christmas break as we speak. Good luck! Drmies (talk) 16:47, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

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Separate the topic of et-Tell in Bronze and Iron Age

Two very different towns, at the same location. They don't really mix.

PLUS Araj is winning ooints over Tell as NT Bethsaida. Urgent fix needed. Arminden (talk) 06:12, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

@Arminden:, I see you've now implemented some of this stuff. As for et-Tell, is the et-Tell that some people identify as Bethsaida the same as this et-Tell? Because if so, I figure I'll add links from each of the articles to the other.

1217 battle

Howard hardly gives any detail, and I cannot access p. 298 of Jean Richard's book on Google Books, maybe smb. else can and can add the exact citation? I can't find anything on that battle - mainly what site did they identify as Bethsaida? How did the battle evolve? Thanks, Arminden (talk) 11:49, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

Fifth Crusade has the Crusaders cross the Jordan at Jisr el-Majami on 10 Nov. 2017 (ref. Van Cleve).

1. Did they identify that site with Bethsaida?
2. Were there 2 separate events on that day?
3. Are different sources stating different things?

Btw, not clear if there was a bridge ('jisr') there at the time. Arminden (talk) 11:57, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

Yes, the bridge was there, repaired under Saladin. Arminden (talk) 12:00, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

Source at Fifth Crusade art., i.e.: Van Cleve (1969 [1962]), "The Fifth Crusade", pp. 391–392, has no battle whatsoever! Adil only retreating, and the Crusaders going on a leisurely reconnaissance march (Majami - E shore of Jordan river & Sea of Galilee - back via Bridge of Jacob's Daughters) and visiting holy sites, bathing etc. Was there any batthe on 10 Nov. 2017? Is the 1962 book outdated, although no new sources found since? Maybe some skirmish only? Arminden (talk) 12:48, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

Richard 297–298: "The campaign began on 3 November 1217 with an offensive in the direction of the Jordan. The sultan al-Adil, rejecting the advice of his son al-Muazzam who urged a vigorous counter-offensive, abandoned Bethsan, where he had established himself, and withdrew to Damascus. The crusaders crossed the Jordan and panic reigned in Damascus, but the Franks contented themselves with this demonstration. At the beginning of December they marched on Tabor, but after two unsuccessful assaults they withdrew in the direction of Acre." I believe that Bethsan is Beit She'an not Bethsaida. Ricard says no more than this. Zero^talk 12:45, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

"I believe that Bethsan is Beit She'an" According to the main article, the 12th-century Crusaders used the toponym "Bessan" for Beit She'an. Dimadick (talk) 13:01, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

Hi Zero, and thanks. Sure, Bethsan = Beisan = Beit She'an. So just a confusion of names? I can't find a bio of Jonathan Howard, there are several authors by that name, he seems to have published a book on Darwin and one on St Paul, sounds like a man-for-all, not a scholar. BookCaps (BookCaps Study Guides) isn't a good recommendation either. Not RS, I guess.

Van Cleve (1962, 1969) writes that Adil withdrew from Beisan w/o a fight. So no battle either, just pillaging.

So simply hot air, no battle, pure confusion by non-academic writer, it seems. I'll move that section to this talk-page, just in case. Arminden (talk) 13:36, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

Not so fast...

Search in this PDF for Bethsaida: there's a map with a battle there, at about the right place. Also at Google Books map 3 on p. xvii.

Publisher: Oxford UP, good. The author, a former US navy officer or marine, has this written about him:

"Laurence W. Marvin is professor of history at Berry College, in Mt. Berry, GA, USA. A specialist in western European medieval military history of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, his previous monograph, The Occitan War, was published in 2008 by Cambridge University Press. In 2018 he co-edited Louis VII and His World (Brill, 2018). He is the author of articles in The Journal of Military History, War in History, War & Society, The Journal of Medieval Military History, The Journal of Medieval History, Viator, and other journals, in addition to numerous book chapters and encyclopedia articles."

To be generally trusted. Still, the route on the map contradicts Van Cleve: crossing at Beisan, back via Majami, up along W lakeshore, Capernaum, Bethsaida, back to Acre. Whom to believe now? Marvin writes on p. 47 that they VISITED Bethsaida, based on "OPE, pp. 162-3" (note 86), i.e. "Oliver of Paderborn, Eng. transl. in Bird, C & C, pp. 158-225". I found it here, and it confirms Marvin's description: <ref>{{cite book |title= Crusade and Christendom: Annotated Documents in Translation from Innocent III to the Fall of Acre, 1187-1291 |series= The Middle Ages Series |editor= Jessalynn Lea Bird |editor2= Edward Peters |editor3= James M. Powell |publisher= University of Pennsylvania Press |year= 2013 |pages= 161-2 |isbn= 0812244788 |url= https://books.google.com/books?id=B6g7GfTuckYC&pg=PA161 |access-date= 30 August 2025}} In [[Oliver of Paderborn]], ch. 2 of his chronicle, ''Historia Damiatina''.</ref>

"We looked up Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter, then reduced to a small casale;(45)" - note 45 explains casale as "village or hamlet."

Oliver's description doesn't mention the bridges or fords used, but Marvin's interpretation looks largely sound to me. It still leaves me wondering what the Crusaders called Bethsaida. Are there any 13th-c. village remains at el-Arij, et-Tell, or elsewhere around there? That would at least help. Arminden (talk) 15:08, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

Changed the text accordingly.

No battle, just pilgrimage.

This based on Oliver of Paderborn, who gives no indication for where this Bethsaida casale was located, other than near the lake.

Maybe other chroniclers had something else to report!

I'll leave this to others. Arminden (talk) 15:34, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

Suggest splitting

El-Araj and et-Tell are major sites, deserving pages of their own - of course mentioned, linked and otherwise cross-referenced from here.

Now that Araj is overtaking Tell as the primary candidate, this must also be factored in.

Hi Zero, maybe you can figure out the position of Mes'adiyeh: east or west of the river? Thanks. Arminden (talk) 21:17, 15 June 2026 (UTC)

@Arminden: It's on the coast of the lake, about 3 km from the mouth of the river on the Jordanian side. Zero^talk 06:23, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Thank you, but I'm a bit confused: Jordan doesn't reach that far north, I'm pretty sure you mean to the east (toward the Golan)? The source mentioning Schumacher also says ca. 1.5 miles, but not in which direction. Arminden (talk) 08:57, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

I've put in "east of...". Arminden (talk) 09:00, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Ooops, it's in the Golan. Zero^talk 09:13, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

In a dual world (east of the river = Golan = Syria), yes. But please check the relief on the topigraphic map first: I don't think Mes'adiyeh is on the slope, but who knows. Araj most certainly isn't. The Golan is actually = Golan Plateau or Golan Heights. The Jordan Rift Valley (geologically speaking) or the Upper Jordan River and its floodplain are neither a plateau or any kind of heights. So call it Syria if you wish so, but not Golan.

I've already chosen the "Golan" map for Araj and Tell given the existing options. About Mes'adiyeh's location I had no clue. Arminden (talk) 21:23, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Btw, the map choice leads automatically to the caption "X in the Golan Heights", which is nonsensical, given the location in a valley and floodplain 200 m under the sea level. Again: if "Golan" is to be used w/o Heights or Plateau and in a explicitly political meaning, go for it. But right now it's only confusing and misleading. Arminden (talk) 21:42, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Et-Tell is up on the slope, so it's OK. My problem is with Araj (and Mes'adiyeh if we do add a map). Arminden (talk) 21:46, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Et-Tell: "four-chambered gate" term is missing

We need it here, and we need an article/section on four-chambered gate and six-chambered gate. Arminden (talk) 08:06, 17 June 2026 (UTC)

When we split et-Tell to own art., pls. take this aling. Arminden (talk) 08:07, 17 June 2026 (UTC)