Talk:Bengali dialects

Western accents

I think someone needs to work on the accents spoken in West Bengal. Only accents from Bangladeshi regions currently have samples. Also, I think the sentence chosen wasn't very good because it doesn't denote the main differences in the East-West divide. Something like "Manush akasher dike takiye cha(n)d dekhchhilo"/"Mainshe asmaner dihe tahaye chad dakhtesilo"/etc would be better since it shows the "change of vowel position within words", "shortening of verbs in the West", "lack of nasal sound in the East" and also "use of Perso-Arabic words in the East" in one sentence. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.192.44 (talk) 01:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but I wanted to stick to using examples from published work, instead of making up my own sentence, even though I agree that the sentence you put together would be more representative of the various differences across the dialect continuum. I could even add in my own family's pronunciation just for fun! মাইন্‌শে আকাশের্‌ দিকে তাকায়্‌ চান্দ্‌ দেক্‌তেসিলো Mainshe akasher dike takae chand dektesilo (মানুষে আকাশের দিকে তাকাইয়া চাঁদ দেখিতেছিল). --SameerKhan (talk) 10:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

These things are always so tricky. I'm not a linguist but I'm sure there's not a lot of published work on the accents of Bengali. Unfortunately WP wouldn't be very happy if all the Bengali editors on WP just started adding their own accents - original research, etc. Meh... I added my local dialect on the list, but I guess it shouldn't be there since it's original research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.229.160.166 (talk) 07:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Rajbangshi

Is not this a dialect of Bengali language? This whole article is flowed.Ovsek (talk) 04:24, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Shahin911 (talk) 04:09, 10 July 2021 (UTC) Fixed it Shahin911 (talk) 23:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Bangladeshi Influence

The entire article has an overwhelming bangladeshi influence. One should remember that Bengal does not mean Bangladesh alone, it means West Bengal and Tripura along with bangladesh. Where are the Indian Bengali Dialects????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pratyaykundu (talk • contribs) 06:46, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Retroflex

The article currently states that the Western dialects of Bengali use retroflex consonants, but I believe that to not be the case. When people are talking normally, you are more likely to hear apical post-alveolar.Stormmaashrooms (talk) 23:55, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Shuddhobhasa

A discussion of the concept of "shuddhobhasa" would be helpful.

References

Map, classification, and sources

In this edit I replaced the two sources that were cited in the map caption with {{citation needed}}, and replaced the second source in the classification section with {{additional citation needed}}.

The short explanation is that any geographic information in the first source is too vague to be the origin of the mapped data (e.g. "Banga dialect is mainly spoken in East-Bengal (Modern Bangladesh)"). And the citation of the second source is so incomplete that it is effectively unverifiable. Sukumar Sen wrote extensively about the Bengali language, but I can find no book of his with this title. A publisher is provided, but no year, and no url/isbn/oclc or other link that might help. Even if the book could be identified, no page number is given. With regard to the second source in the classification section, about a year ago the citation was broken and incorrectly repaired. Until then, it was the same as the incomplete citation already described. Because it is effectively unverifiable, it has not been restored.

The long explanation is arrived at by examining the article history:

• 25 Aug 2017 Asm sultan adds classification section
• 13 Sep 2017 Asm sultan adds first source to classification section, "বাংলা ভাষা ও উপভাষা, সুকুমার সেন, আনন্দ পাবলিশার্স [Bengali Language and Dialect, Sukumar Sen, Ananda Publishers]"
• 16 Oct 2017 Batternut adds a second source to classification section, Bandyopadhyay, Anita (2001). "Problems of Phonetic Transcription in Bengali". Praci-Bhasha-Vijnan Indian Journal of Linguistics. 20: 79. OCLC 2256120.
• 18 Aug 2018 Stormmaashrooms adds self-made map, citing no sources
• 23 Aug 2018 Msasag tags map with {{citation needed}}
• 28 May 2020 UserNumber removes unsourced map
• 1 Jun 2020 IP editor restores map and copies to its caption the two inline citations in the classification section
• 26 Mar 2021 Mahakaal2003 breaks the classification section referencing by deleting the definition of named reference "ReferenceA"
• 25 Mar 2021 Sbb tries to rescue "ReferenceA" but (presumably mistakenly) connects it to a completely different Bengali source, Ahsan 2000
• 15 Sep 2021 SalamAlayka changes to a different map, supposedly based on P. R. Sarkar, but leaves the inline citations in the caption unchanged

So in addition to the sourcing problems described in my short explanation, the sources that ended up in the map caption were probably never the origin of the map. They were copied there by the IP editor likely just to keep the map from being removed again. Moreover, the map has since changed, and its new name suggests it is now based on a work by P. R. Sarkar, but the citations haven't been updated accordingly.

If anyone can add to the caption an accurate source for the map data, please do so. If you can add to the classification section a citation sufficiently complete to be verifiable, please do that too. --Worldbruce (talk) 23:52, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk:, just tagged you to this conversation. You may find this information helpful. This map is a scam. Aideppp (talk) 03:55, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Far beyond what Bandyopadhyay says about dialects

@CharlesWain: In this edit you removed the cleanup tag "{{Additional citation needed|date=April 2022|reason=The source doesn't say they classified the dialects by phonology and pronunciation, and it is unclear how Kamarupi and Jharkhandi in the source map to Rangpuri and Manbhumi in the list below.}}" with the statement in your edit summary: "Well sourced, quotation is there. Geographical distribution is the clarification."

It is not well sourced. The statement in the article is:

Suniti Kumar Chatterji and Sukumar Sen classified Bengali dialects in five classes by their phonology and pronunciation. (emphasis mine)

1. Bengali dialect ...
2. Rarhi dialect ...
3. Varendri dialect ...
4. Rangpuri dialect ...
5. Manbhumi dialect ...
6. Sundarbani dialect ...

The quotation from the source (Bandyopadhyay) is:

We all know that there are 4 or 5 dialects of the Bengali language. These are, according to Professor Suniti Kumar Chatterji and Sukumar Sen - Rarhi, Barendra, Kamarupi, Banga and Jharkhandi as added by Dr. S. Sen.

First, there exist different ways of classifying dialects. The source doesn't say how Chatterji and Sen classified them (nothing about phonology and pronunciation).

Second, there is no explanation of why, when the source identifies Banga, Rarhi, Barendra, Kamarupi, and Jharkhandi, Wikipedia is using the names Bengali, Rarhi, Varendri, Rangpuri, Manbhumi, and Sundarbani. If the cited source doesn't call them that, what source does? Wikipedia serves a varied audience and aims to make articles as understandable as feasible to as many readers as possible. Non-expert readers may not know that Kamarup is in Assam and are unlikely to readily connect the dots to realize that what the source calls Kamrupi is what we're calling Rangpuri. Moreover, the source contains no description of how the dialects are distributed geographically (other than that Banga is mainly spoken in modern Bangladesh), so where do these geographical descriptions come from?

Those are the reasons that an additional (or better) source is needed. I have restored the cleanup tag because the problems it highlights have not been resolved. --Worldbruce (talk) 18:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Worldbruce, I have added a source where all the details are given. Sundarbani isn't a dialect, neither the source nor the article is mentioning so. There's no Rangpuri dialect either as per Sukumar Sen's classification. CharlesWain (talk) 12:51, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I look forward to reading those pages of Bhāshāra itibr̥tta next time I'm at a library. --Worldbruce (talk) 13:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Potential vandalism campaign

The recent edit war on the page appears to be connected to this (and other recent) off-wiki campaign(s). A semi protection might help. --Mrb Rafi (talk) 17:38, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Duplicate article?

A Dialects of Bangla page has been created, and it seems like this page covers similar content and more? Not sure what makes sense, as it seems like there might be some challenges here, but wanted to raise it. Thanks! Disasterfemme (talk) 16:36, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

now at Draft:Dialects of Bangla Disasterfemme (talk) 22:25, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

Clarifying the status of Brahmanbaria within Comilla dialect

This user, SAD AL KHOTIB, has added claims suggesting that the Brahmanbaria dialect is distinct from the Comilla dialect. However, this distinction is not referenced in recognised historical-linguistics treatments of Bengali. Brahmanbaria is generally treated as a local spoken variety within the Comilla area rather than a separate dialect. The user previously suggested that Gopal Haldar made this claim, but no citation in his published work has been found to support it. Many people from various districts make similar claims, but that would imply that every district has its own dialect. Dialect varieties can show noticeable differences; this is normal and common, but such differences alone are not sufficient to establish a separate dialect. For example, the Feni (Chhagalnaiya area) subdialect of Noakhali differs significantly from Grierson's characterisation of Noakhali, yet such subdialects are not normally treated as separate dialects in the literature. If the assertion rests on a small university thesis or the opinion of a local linguist, it should be presented as observation or interpretation rather than established classification. Per Wikipedia policy, additions must follow verifiability WP:V, a neutral point of view WP:NPOV and no original research WP:OR. The current additions lack reliable references and read as personal opinion or original research; they should be removed or reworded and tagged with unless exact, reliable sources (author, work, page/edition, DOI/ISBN or a stable link) are provided. If such a source is posted, the article can be updated neutrally, otherwise the unsourced assertion should not be reintroduced to avoid edit warring (see WP:EDITWAR). Jacklincoln47 (talk) 19:19, 17 March 2026 (UTC)

Gopal Haldar, in his study of Eastern Bengali, divided all East Bengali dialects into four groups. Group I or "Central East Bengali" spans the modern Bangladeshi divisions of Mymensingh, Dhaka, Faridpur, and Barisal, as well as the district of Chandpur in Chittagong Division. The de facto Standard East Bengali spoken around the Bikrampur region is a member of this group, comparable to Chatterji's "Typical East Bengali". Group II or "Central North East Bengali" is spoken in eastern areas of the Mymensingh and Dhaka divisions, the western half of the Sylhet Division, as well as the Brahmanbaria District of the Chittagong Division. Group III or "North East Bengali" is spoken in the eastern half of the Sylhet Division as well as the bordering Barak Valley division of Assam, India. Group IV or "South East Bengali" is spoken in the Chittagong Division, notably excluding the Greater Comilla region. The Comilla District and Tripura state of India, the Bengalis in the latter chiefly being migrants from the former, sit at the confluence of all the major groupings and thus the speech of this region shares features with all the major groups classified by Haldar. Transitionary East Bengali is spoken in the Khulna division as well as Western Greater Faridpur i.e. Rajbari District, which shares features with both Standard Bengali and Eastern Bengali dialects. SAD AL KHOTIB (talk) 09:43, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

Please provide a verifiable source for the claim that Gopal Haldar divided East Bengali into those four groups (full bibliographic details or a stable link). Per Wikipedia verifiability and no original research policies, unsourced assertions must be removed or clearly identified as unverified. Reintroducing the claim without a source risks revert and an edit-war. If you post the source I will update the article neutrally. Jacklincoln47 (talk) 10:28, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

I see what you're saying, but that's not really what Gopal Haldar was doing. He never said Brahmanbaria is a "separate dialect". He grouped it into a different cluster within Eastern Bengali. That's a normal way linguists organise dialects, it doesn't mean each area becomes its own distinct dialect. So saying "Brahmanbaria dialect is different from Comilla dialect" is a bit misleading. It makes it sound like he was defining a whole new dialect category, when in reality he was just showing variation inside the broader Eastern Bengali group. Jacklincoln47 (talk) 10:50, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

I am aware that he didn't say that Brahmanbarian dialect is a separate dialect. But he didn't group Brahmanbarian dialect with the Cumillan dialect because these two are not so similar. The Cumillan dialect has many words that can't be found in Brahmanbarian dialect but rather can be found in Noakhailla dialect. For example, The verb structure of the Cumillan dialect is khaiyam/koiram which is closer to the Noakhailla khaiyum/koirgum. But in Brahmanbaria people use khamu/(kormu/korum). Both cumillan and noakhailla people use words like babure (Oh my) or kittir (why) that can't be found in Brahmanbarian dialect. Also Brahmanbarian people use words like pail (to fan) or rau (talking) that are used by people of kishoreganj and habiganj and not by people of cumilla. So Brahmanbarian dialect should not be grouped with Cumillan dialect SAD AL KHOTIB (talk) 13:19, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

The examples you've given show local variation but in linguistics those kinds of differences alone aren't enough to define a separate dialect. Dialect classification is based on broader structural patterns and bundles of isoglosses, not just a few lexical or morphological features. Regarding classification, Brahmanbaria is not consistently treated as a completely separate dialect in the literature. In some recognised classifications it is grouped with the Greater Comilla area, while in others (such as by Gopal Haldar) it is placed with neighbouring regions like Kishoreganj and Habiganj like you mentioned. This actually reflects a broader dialect continuum, where boundaries are not rigid and neighbouring areas share overlapping features. So the differences you mentioned don't support treating Brahmanbaria as its own dialect. They are better understood as regional variation within a wider system. Jacklincoln47 (talk) 14:15, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

For Brahmanbarian dialect the wider system under which it is a regional variation isn't the Cumillan dialect. It would be the Group 2 described by Gopal Haldar. The Cumillan dialect has mixed features of all the groups but the group 2 has its own broader structural features. SAD AL KHOTIB (talk) 15:26, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

The point about Group 2 in the classification by gopal Haldar is fair, but that actually reinforces the idea of broader regional groupings rather than strict, district-based dialect boundaries. These groups are analytical categories based on shared structural features across multiple areas, not discrete dialects tied one to one with individual districts. Even if Brahmanbaroa aligns more closely with what Haldar describes as Group 2 that does not make it a separate dialect in itself. It simply means it shares features with a wider regional grouping that also includes places like Kishoreganj, Mymensing and Habiganj. At the same time, areas like Comilla showing "mixed features" actually supports the idea of a dialect continuum rather than clear-cut divisions. Which is what Brahmanbaria "dialect" is, like I said. Brahmanbaria shows features characteristic of Comilla, Mymensing and Sylheti dialects/languages of Bengali, reflecting its position within the eastern Bengali dialect cluster. Transitional zones are very common in dialectology and they often share features with multiple neighbouring groups. So the main issue here is that "Group 2" is a higher level classification not a justification for treating Brahmanbaria as its own distinct dialect. For Wikipedia, what matters is how reliable sources explicitly classify it. There has to be a source that clearly states that Brahmanbaria constitutes a separate dialect, it would be more accurate to describe it in terms of its placement within a broader regional grouping rather than presenting it as an independent dialect. Unless a reliable source explicitly classifies Brahmanbaria as a separate dialect, insisting it is one comes across more as personal opinion than established scholarship. Jacklincoln47 (talk) 16:45, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

Mate, I'm not saying that the group 2 describes Brahmanbarian dialect as a separate dialect but according to the classification of Gopal Haldar the Brahmanbarian dialect is not a subdialect of the Cumillan dialect. Their features are different. Cumillan dialect shows mixed features and Brahmanbarian has its own features. So, the based on the classification of Gopal Haldar Brahmanbaria Kishoreganj Habiganj and Narsingdi region should be a different dialect group in the map and table. It shouldn't necessarily be called the "Brahmanbarian Dialect" but it should be shown as a separate group. And are there any sources that claim that the Brahmanbarian dialect is a subdialect of the Cumillan dialect? There are sources that describe the dialects of Brahmanbaria Cumilla and Chandpur under the title "Dialects of Cumilla." But that title is used because these regions were previously known as Greater Cumilla. SAD AL KHOTIB (talk) 17:33, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

In the work of Gopal Haldar, the "groups" are broad analytical categories based on shared structural features, not necessarily units meant to be mapped one-to-one as distinct dialect groups for each set of districts. Saying that Brahmanbaria, Kishoreganj, Habiganj and Narsingdi should be shown as a separate group is an interpretation of the classification, not something that can be added unless a reliable source explicitly presents it that way. Wikipedia does not allow us to reorganise or reinterpret classifications ourselves (WP:OR). The fact that some sources appear under the heading "Dialects of Cumilla" does not necessarily mean those regions are being treated as part of Greater Cumilla in a strict classificatory sense. It may simply reflect a broader editorial or geographical label, which at least shows that there is published material discussing them together. It does show that grouping practices vary. So the main issue remains, unless there is a reliable published source that explicitly presents Brahmanbaria, along with those regions you mentioned, as a distinct dialect group in a map or classification, we can't introduce that grouping ourselves. Any such grouping needs to be directly supported by a source, not inferred from differences in features. As for the map, it does not follow Haldar's grouping at all. It follows Sukumar Sen and Suniti Chatterji, and it only includes dialects that are the most widely recognised. Gopal Haldar never mentioned Sundarbani, but Chatterji and Sen did. If I wwere to include Haldar's grouping as well, the map would become a mixture of different and multiple linguistic opinions rather than a single coherent classification. Also, the fact that Cumilla dialect shows mixed features while Brahmanbaria aligns more closely with another group does not automatically require creating a separate labelled group on the map. Jacklincoln47 (talk) 21:04, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Sukumar Sen and Suniti Chatterji grouped Bengali dialects into 6 groups and Gopal Haldar worked only with the Eastern Bengali dialects from those. That's why Sundarbani won't be found in his classifications. And based of the classifications of Suniti Chatterji and Sukumar Sen the first map showing those 6 groups is correct. But based on which classification were the regional dialect groups within each of those groups classified in the second map? And if two dialects show different features but that difference doesn't require them to be part of two different groups then based on what were those groups classified? SAD AL KHOTIB (talk) 08:20, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Sen and Chatterji classified Bengali at the level of broad dialect clusters, so the first map directly reflects that framework. As for the second map, it does not attempt to represent every local or district level variation. It reflects dialect distinctions that are more widely described in the literature and commonly treated as identifiable groupings, rather than introducing finer subdivisions for every regional variety. Because of that, not every area with noticeable differences is shown as a separate group. If additional groupings, such as separating Brahmanbaria-Kishorganj-Habiganj-Narsingdi are to be introduced, they need to be supported by a source that explicitly defines them at that level. Otherwise, it becomes a matter of selecting features and drawing boundaries based on interpretation, which is not how dialect classifications are presented in published work. So the main issue is not whether differences exist but whether those differences have been recognised in the literature as defining a distinct group within a classification. Without that, introducing a new grouping would not reflect an established system, but an inferred one.Jacklincoln47 (talk) 10:53, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Issues with maps

Moved from File talk:Bengali dialects2.png

Robert McClenon (talk) 04:07, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

@Chaipau, Fylindfotberserk, and Jacklincoln47: continuing the discussion here as requested by WP:DRN. To put it briefly, here we're now:
1. 3/4 users (Msasag, Chaipau, Fylindfotberserk) agreed that the language varieties (includes Rangpuri/Kamtapuri, Sylheti, Chittagonian, Surjapuri, Rajbanshi, Assamese (Goalparia dialects), Assamese (Kamrupi dialects), Odia (Northern dialects)) should be excluded from the maps on Bengali dialects. While Jacklincoln47 (the maps' creator) has so far agreed only to remove the Kamrupi and Goalpariya dialects and the Hojai district of Assam and asked for continued discussions on the other language varieties.
2. It should be noted that these varieties have recognition as distinct from Bengali by modern linguists, ethnologue etc. Surjapuri and several others lack any Bengali linguistic self-identification among speakers. Several also have formal recognition from government as distinct languages (Kamtapuri/Rangpuri, Rajbanshi, Assamese, Odia). Msasag (talk) 12:48, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

If it doesn't go either way, the ones with contentious position can be shaded different with proper explanation in relevant legends. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:41, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

I agree. Asterisks can be added to indicate that these languages (Sylheti, Chitttagonian and Kamtapuri/Rangpuri) are sometimes treated as independent languages and sometimes as dialects, as I did in the 2nd dialect map Jacklincoln47 (talk) 19:16, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

Thanks @Fylindfotberserk: for the suggestion. Adjusting the approach here will help us reach a clearer consensus. The asterisks added by User:Jacklincoln47 are visually indistinct and don't solve the core issue. Including these regions on the core map remains inherently misleading to readers.
Proposal: Exclude the contentious cases (Sylheti and Chittagonian) from the map visual entirely. Instead, we can add a precise footnote directly below the map in the relevant articles stating: "Sometimes Sylheti language and Chittagonian language are also considered as dialects of Bengali.".
The case for Kamtapuri/Rangpuri is different from Sylheti and Chittagonian, since its distinct status is backed by formal government recognition (West Bengal Official Language Bill, 2018) rather than just being linguistically disputed. It falls in the same category as Assamese or Odia which also have formal goverment recognition as distinct languages.
To ensure strict adherence to modern sources, Surjapuri, Rajbanshi, Kamtapuri/Rangpuri, and the Assamese and Odia dialect areas must be excluded outright, since these aren't classified as Bengali by any modern source, official or linguistic. The contentious cases seem specifically limited to Sylheti, Chittagonian, and Noakhailla. Msasag (talk) 03:07, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

I agree with @Msasag.

• The KRDS lect and Assamese language cannot be part of Bengali.
• I agree that Sylheti language and Chittagonian language should also be excluded. It was recognized in 1926 itself by S K Chatterji that these two languages evolved independently from the Magadhi. So linguistically, there was never any doubt that it was not a Variety (linguistics) of Standard Bengali. I would push back on even mentioning that they are Bengali in a footnote - because this is a (current) political/identity position, and not related to language.

Chaipau (talk) 20:51, 31 July 2026 (UTC)