Talk:Battle of Pilsud

Misinterpretations

@NeutronStar0, kindly read the source, Jai Singh and other Rajput kings were fighting on behalf of Mughals. AlvaKedak (talk) 11:12, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

AlvaKedak, First of all, Jai Singh II was an independent ruler. He received the Subah of Malwa, but that was simply because the Mughal Empire had established such dominance that smaller key players had to seek their approval for territorial control. Even the Marathas had discussions with the Mughals regarding subedari, but that did not mean they were under Mughal rule.

You mentioned that other Rajput kings were fighting on behalf of the Mughals. However, do you know that Maharaja Chhatrasal was an independent ruler? This is evident from the Mughal Empire’s last invasion of Bundelkhand in 1729 (Battle of Jaitpur), where the Mughals attempted but failed to assert control. This proves that Chhatrasal was fighting on behalf of Jai Singh, not the Mughal emperor.

Furthermore, there was no Mughal commander or Mughal soldier present in the Battle of Pilsud. Jai Singh fought with his own forces and his own spirit, without any external orders. Adding the Mughal Empire to the belligerents section is historically inaccurate and misrepresents the nature of the battle.

Historical accuracy is crucial, and it is important to differentiate between rulers who had formal ties with the Mughal Empire and those who acted independently in military affairs. NeutronStar0 (talk) 19:11, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

According to the source I cited earlier:

"Farrukhsiyar, after defeating his rival, entered Delhi on 2nd February. 1713, and on Friday the 16th of the following October he appointed Jai Singh viceroy of the great province of Malwa."

The arrangements the Mughals had with the Rajput kings were completely different from those they had with the Marathas.

With regards to Chhatrasal, that simply is not true , quote Mahajan:

"He returned to Bundelkhand after the death of Aurangzeb. For 14 years, Chhatra Sal fully cooperated with the Mughal Empire. In May 1708, the sons of Chhatra Sal met Bahadur. Shah and they were given Mansabs. In April 1710, Chhatra Sal presented himself before the Emperor and joined the Mughal army which was marching against Banda, the Sikh leader. He participated in the assault on the Sikh fortress of Lohgarh. He retained imperial favour during the reign of Farrukh-siyar."

Chhatrasal was not an independent ruler at this time, he only declared independence a few years later. AlvaKedak (talk) 21:16, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

Reverts

@Rawn3012 and NeutronStar0: also pinging @AlvaKedak:, the sources you have cited for "Rajput victory" have clearly established the fact that Jai Singh was Mughal viceroy of Malwa and he remained Mughal mansabar by the end of his reign:

• Gupta & Bakshi, R.K.& S.R. (2008). Rajasthan Through the Ages vol. 4. Sarup & Sons. pp. 91–92. ISBN 9788176258418. Retrieved 2020-09-23. {{cite book}}: More than one of |pages= and |pp= specified (help); More than one of |pp= and |pages= specified (help)

Bahadur Shah arrived at Amber (c. 10th January, 1708) on his way to Marwar, he gave the Kachhawa kingdom to Bijay Singh, with costly gifts and other marks of Imperial favour, and thus Jai Singh was deposed and relegated to the rank of a mere mansabdar out of employ.----he appointed Jai Singh viceroy of the great province of Malwa.

• Bhatnagar, V. S. (1974). Life and Times of Sawai Jai Singh, 1688-1743. Impex India. pp. 113–115.

the Emperor gave his assent to Asad-ullah's proposal just as in October 1714 he had agreed to appoint Ajit Singh to thr government of Thatta and Jai Singh to that of Malwa on his recommendation....efforts of the Marathas to acquire a firm foot-hold in Malwa that Jai Singh took charge of the province.

You haven't provided pages for hooja but so far the quotation nowhere affirms that Jaipur state was independent. Shakakarta (talk) 11:16, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

@Shakakarta Don't do WP:SYNTH Provide a clear and reliable source that states Jai Singh in the Battle of Pilsud fought for the Mughals. Aside of that your first source is prior to the Rajput Rebellion of 1708-1710 after which the Mughals had no powers in the affairs of Rajputana. Regarding your statement of Jaipur not being Independent is kind of confusing like even after Mughals had declined the Marathas, EIC and Jaipur to all intents and purposes independent, yet they recognised the Mughals as the head and minted coins in their names. Please see map from Internet Archive in Keay, John (2000). India: A History. Grove Publication. p. 369. ISBN 0802137970. Also this statement from Keay, John (2000). India: A History. Grove Publication. p. 360. ISBN 0802137970."A year later Ajit Singh and Jai Singh Kacchwaha again rose in revolt and attacked the provincial capital of Ajmer. Such repeated defiance would once have invited the direst of reprisals but now elicited only further clemency. As Bahadur Shah hastened away to the Panjab to deal with the Sikhs, it began to look as if imperial indulgence of the rajputs, once founded on strength and dictated by policy, was now beset by doubt and dictate by circumstance. Ten years later, after further rajput defiance and more abject Mughal concessions, the Jaipur and Udaipur rajas were said to ho 'all the country from 30 kos [about a hundred kilometres] of Delhi, when the native land of Jai Singh begins, to the shores of the sea at Surat'."" Rawn3012 (talk) 14:26, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

@Shakakarta Jai Singh II was an independent ruler, and this was evident during the Rajput Rebellion, where several Rajput kingdoms declared their autonomy. Although some of these kingdoms maintained relations with the Mughal Empire, their primary intent was to expand their own influence and territories using the Mughals as a means to that end, rather than out of allegiance.

Jai Singh II was not alone in this approach. Other prominent states like Awadh and the Nizamshahi of Hyderabad had also attained practical independence, yet they continued to participate in the Mughal court. This was largely because the Mughal Empire, over the years, had established such strong institutional and symbolic authority that even emerging powers found it politically beneficial to associate with them. Even the Marathas, at times, engaged in dialogue with the Mughal emperor regarding matters like Subedari, purely for strategic gains.

It’s also important to note that by this period, the Mughal Empire was no longer as powerful as it once was. Armies of the Marathas, Sikhs, Rajputs, and Jats had already seized Delhi multiple times, clearly showing the empire’s weakened state and loss of real authority.

Regarding the battle in question, it is important to clarify that there were no Mughal generals or troops directly involved, nor was there any explicit order from the Mughal court to engage the Maratha forces. Therefore, including the Mughal Empire as a belligerent in this context is misleading. There is no direct or credible historical source that confirms Mughal initiation or command in this battle. NeutronStar0 (talk) 21:07, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

References