Talk:Balen Report
Add topicYou are an administrator, so you may disregard the message below You are seeing this because of the limitations of {{If extended confirmed}} and {{If admin}}
You can hide this message box by adding the following to a new line of your common.css page: .ECR-edit-request-warning {
display: none;
}
Stop: You may only use this page to create an edit request This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is subject to the extended-confirmed restriction. You are not an extended-confirmed user, so you must not edit or discuss this topic anywhere on Wikipedia except to make an edit request. (Additional details are in the message box just below this one.) |
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article relates to the Arab–Israeli conflict.The following restrictions apply to everyone editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. |
Untitled
[edit]"This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality" - is accidentally amusing. 213.122.30.182 18:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
£200,000. Allegedly.
[edit]The basic problem with the "price tag" attached to the BBC's efforts to keep the report secret is that the Daily Mail clearly does not have proof of the £200,000 figure. Ultimately it stems from the following "evidence":
- "A source close to the case said they believed that the BBC had spend in the region of £200,000 on the case so far, while another legal expert claimed the cost could be as much as £300,000."
The report is very carefully worded to give the impression that the figure in question is £200,00 but the operative part of the above is "believed" - i.e. their source does not know for sure themself. All other mentions of £200k are effectively paraphrasing of - or commentary on - this putative figure. There is certainly nothing that justifies the recent change to the effect that, "the BBC has authorized £200,000 in an effort to withhold the report..." The Mail article simply does not make that claim. The reallity is that the BBC could have spent £20,000 or £2,000,000 on this, but there is no clear and unequivacal claim either way, only speculation. Nick Cooper (talk) 20:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
- Trouble is the article's lead says: "The BBC has been accused of "shameful hypocrisy" over its decision to spend £200,000 blocking a freedom of information request about its reporting in the Middle East." The Daily Mail is claiming that the BBC actually did decide to spend this money. Where they got this information I don't know, but as a reliable source, it does seem to be claiming that a decision to spend it was made (ie an 'authorisation'). As for how much was actually spent, that is up in the air as per your comment above. Tundrabuggy (talk) 19:00, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
- You seem to be reading too much into a by no means uncommon journalistic trick. Newspapers will frequently get someone to apply an estimate to a monetary value, and then write the story as if that is definitely the sum involved, while couching the source in suitably vague terms. The most important two words in the story are "they believed" in relation to what their source told them. If the source knew for sure, or the Mail had proof, then the report would have said so, but they don't, so they don't and it doesn't. Clearly the BBC decided to spend an unknown/unspecified sum of money, as they were continuing to fight the issue through the courts, but we can't tie that in with the specific estimate the Mail has accepted in this manner. It's a bit like saying, "X was prepared to bid £10,000 in the auction," because that was the price the bidding stopped at, when in fact they may very well have been prepared to bid twice that amount. Nick Cooper (talk) 21:27, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
- The Daily Mail says it again in this article: "The BBC's decision to spend an estimated £200,000 of licence feepayers' money to keep the Balen Report secret has been widely condemned." and "The BBC was in court yesterday fighting over the public's right to know. But the Corporation was not battling to bring information into the open. Instead it has paid an estimated £200,000 in legal fees to keep the report secret." The Belfast Telegraph. It is a figure that keeps coming up in newspaper articles and cannot be dismissed as a mere journalistic trickery. Perhaps we can say something to the effect that it has spent an "estimated 200,000₤"? Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
- Repetition of an estimate doesn't turn it into a fact; the Mail will stick to what it said first, while the Belfast Telegraph piece appeared a full six days later, and will certainly have been influenced by it. There's actually no reason why we can't say, "The Daily Mail reported that the BBC may have paid between £200,000 and £300,000 to withhold the report," because that's what the report actually says. Nick Cooper (talk) 11:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
- I figure that reliable sources do not make such claims without having some evidence of its veracity. The problem with the use of the word "may" is the implication that they may have paid nothing at all. How about simply leaving out the "may" altogether? or perhaps "The BBC is believed to have paid between ...." ? Tundrabuggy (talk) 21:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
- Seeing as The Daily Mail is viewed as a reliable source by some, could you please add the following to the articles about cannabis, Afghanistan and Biology and Chemistry articles, "Officials believe the area - near to the Taliban stronghold of Quetta in Pakistan - was turning dried cannabis leaves into heroin.'" Daily Mail. JHJPDJKDKHI! (talk) 15:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Lol. Well there is nothing that says that any media cannot err. Of course one might wonder about the Afghan officials here. Perhaps they have been smoking that cannabis, or shooting it? Tundrabuggy (talk) 21:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone would assume that they would have got legal representation for nothing, and while it would not doubt have been a sum in six figures, it is still possible that it was less than £200,000. It may only have been marginally less, but we can't say for certain that it is the absolute bottom of the possible "price range". I must say, however, that your trust that British newspapers would not knowingly lie does come across as charming, but somewhat misplaced! Nick Cooper (talk) 23:13, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- lol, you put words in my mouth! Does the media knowingly lie? I have no doubt. But WP considers most newspapers as Reliable Sources and we have to put our trust in them until and unless they have proved themselves otherwise, no?. Else what do we have to go on except our subjective opinions? Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- So what happens if one paper says the other is lieing or rather says the other is generally an unreliable source? JHJPDJKDKHI! (talk) 08:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- lol, you put words in my mouth! Does the media knowingly lie? I have no doubt. But WP considers most newspapers as Reliable Sources and we have to put our trust in them until and unless they have proved themselves otherwise, no?. Else what do we have to go on except our subjective opinions? Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- Seeing as The Daily Mail is viewed as a reliable source by some, could you please add the following to the articles about cannabis, Afghanistan and Biology and Chemistry articles, "Officials believe the area - near to the Taliban stronghold of Quetta in Pakistan - was turning dried cannabis leaves into heroin.'" Daily Mail. JHJPDJKDKHI! (talk) 15:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- I figure that reliable sources do not make such claims without having some evidence of its veracity. The problem with the use of the word "may" is the implication that they may have paid nothing at all. How about simply leaving out the "may" altogether? or perhaps "The BBC is believed to have paid between ...." ? Tundrabuggy (talk) 21:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
- Repetition of an estimate doesn't turn it into a fact; the Mail will stick to what it said first, while the Belfast Telegraph piece appeared a full six days later, and will certainly have been influenced by it. There's actually no reason why we can't say, "The Daily Mail reported that the BBC may have paid between £200,000 and £300,000 to withhold the report," because that's what the report actually says. Nick Cooper (talk) 11:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Neutrality
[edit]Sometimes things are so neutral as to lose their meaning (a comment in relation to the first comment on this page.) According to the BCC itself , says it [the BBC] "had been accused of biased reporting against Israel." This is not an irrelevant detail, yet it is addressed in this article as if it were. Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:03, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
"to be published as part of the on-going public debate about alleged BBC bias against Israel." my italics. If this is the on-going debate, it needs to be in here.Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
"BBC fights to suppress internal report into allegations of bias against Israel" From the Belfast Telegraph article:
The dispute is over a 20,000-page report commissioned four years ago, at a time when the Israeli government had announced that it was withdrawing all co-operation with the BBC staff stationed in the Middle East, including all the help BBC journalists could normally expect with issues such as passports and visas.
So clearly the report was actually and particularly commissioned over allegations of alleged BBC bias against Israel, yet to read the article, you would not know this. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
- The BBC have been accused of bias in their coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by both sides. If we said that some media sources have accused them of being biased against Israel, we'd have to also mention that others have accused them of being biased in favour of Israel. As we don't know what the findings of the Balen Report actually were, it doesn't seem much use in any case. Robofish (talk) 11:36, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
proposed merge from Malcolm Balen
[edit]Malcolm's article is a bit WP:ONEEVENT, which suggests at least considering this merge. What do you folks think? --j⚛e deckertalk 19:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
- Support merge - he doesn't seem to be notable in his own right. Robofish (talk) 14:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
BBC Honest Reporting award etc
[edit]The BBC has won the HonestReporting annual award more times than any other media outlet thanks to its institutional anti-semitism and anti-Israel bias. Ask anyone who works for the BBC and they will tell you how it is there. The simplistic reason given is that it is to protect the BBCs reporters from the Arabs who would not cooperate/kidnap/murder/torture them if they critisised them or showed them in a bad light! Clearly, they have no fear of Jews or Israel; the worst they would get is a strongly worded letter of complaint! The BBC has lost its moral compass, if it ever had one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.20.138 (talk) 12:49, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- The same is true of pretty much the entire British establishment. 08:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.26.195.154 (talk)
Peter Oborne's findings removed?
[edit]Why was the section detailing Peter Oborne's findings that the report showed, if anything, a pro-Israel bias? Detailed here: http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne-james-jones/pro-israel-lobby-in-britain-full-text#m9
The removal seems politically motivated — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.80.20 (talk) 14:52, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
- Nothing new there, then. Clean Arlene (talk) 15:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
External links modified
[edit]Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on Balen Report. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080111025310/http://www.bbc.co.uk:80/blogs/opensecrets/2007/03/the_bbc_v_steven_sugar_the_bal.html to http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/opensecrets/2007/03/the_bbc_v_steven_sugar_the_bal.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 00:55, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
[edit]Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 3 external links on Balen Report. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080525120108/http://www.ejpress.org:80/article/13214 to http://www.ejpress.org/article/13214
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120219212541/http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/lawyer-in-the-news/steven-sugar-takes-freedom-information-house-lords to http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/lawyer-in-the-news/steven-sugar-takes-freedom-information-house-lords
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090731120439/http://www.lawreports.co.uk:80/WLRD/2009/HLPC/Feb0.3.html to http://www.lawreports.co.uk/WLRD/2009/HLPC/Feb0.3.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 12:11, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
NPOV
[edit]At the risk of wading into some kind of politics war, I think lines like this -- 'Helen Boaden, Head of BBC News *hilariously* claimed to believe that this was "an editorial misjudgment".' -- are a fairly clear violation of NPOV. Karl au mu (talk) 09:03, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
I see my edits addressing the above have been reverted. I would reiterate that none of the removed material was reliably cited, most of it post-dates the subject in question, and probably amounts to a sythesis, anyway. The Barbara Plett incident is - properly - dealt with on her page already. The accusation against Guerin is far too serious to be cited to nothign more than a blog, and doesn't belong here, either. Nick Cooper (talk)
External links modified
[edit]Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Balen Report. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080111025310/http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/opensecrets/2007/03/the_bbc_v_steven_sugar_the_bal.html to http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/opensecrets/2007/03/the_bbc_v_steven_sugar_the_bal.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 08:22, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
First Paragraph abomination
[edit]The first paragraph is both extremely poorly written and gives a misleading impression.
The implication is that the report itself was - in the words of the Head of News quoted at the end of the introduction - an "editorial mistake" and so it's purported conclusions are specious. In reality that quotation refers to a specific incident where BBC News reporter Barbara Plett described her sympathetic reaction to seeing Yasser Arafat airlifted to hospital - detailed here: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/the-secret-report-at-heart-of-bbc-s-gaza-paranoia-6870301.html
The entire thing gives the impression of being the mangled remnants of an edit-war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:E401:4600:2109:C0F2:E89B:E6C1 (talk) 13:45, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Edit request 14 July 2025
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Description of suggested change:
"On 7 March 2025, former BBC Middle East correspondent Tim Llewellyn writing for The Electronic Intifada said that he had read the report and quoted from the report that it “found no evidence of deliberate or systematic bias” against Israel." should be deleted. This is from a BBC employee. It is not impartial - it is called "marking their own homework". It would be better to get a citation from someone who is independent of the BBC.
Diff:
| − | + | CHANGED_TEXT |
2A00:23C8:E43:9A01:349C:1953:661A:7692 (talk) 17:31, 14 July 2025 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Dahawk04 Talk 💬 19:57, 14 July 2025 (UTC)
Claim in Intro
[edit]The edit request above drew some attention to this, but consider the claim from the second paragraph:
On 7 March 2025, former BBC Middle East correspondent Tim Llewellyn writing for The Electronic Intifada said that he had read the report and quoted from the report that it “found no evidence of deliberate or systematic bias” against Israel.
The Electronic Intifada is a generally unreliable source. The writer has a clear conflict of interest – Mr Llewellyn is a former BBC Middle East correspondent commenting on an inquiry into bias in the BBC's coverage of the Middle East; he is a subject of the report's review. There are two unverified claims: that Mr Llewellyn has read the Balen Report and that the report found no evidence of bias. No RS has verified these claims. And its prominence gives readers a false impression of the report's findings.
Given The Electronic Intifada's status and the absence of corroborating evidence, this claim doesn't meet WP:RS or WP:V for a factual claim. I suggest this claim be removed. Dr Fell (talk) 23:46, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
- I can't believe that a biased source in a biased publication made it into this article. Seems hand-wavy. ~2025-32613-56 (talk) 20:50, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
- A journalist reporting on his former employer does not in any way impeach the validity of the report. That a top regional/war correspondent has been attributed adds to its reliability than the other way around (calling it CoI is an awkward bar). Llewellyn is as good as it gets short of the formal release of the original docs.
- And remember gunrel=/=deprecation, in our case RSP says attribution should be made and we have that here along with a top notch byline. Further issues can be taken to WP:RSN but the material is well within all possible enwiki guidelines and blanking it as such is unfounded.
- Lastly, it had long been known that the report was a nothingburger hence the siginificant effort to keep it out of public view. Here we only have a confirmation of this. Gotitbro (talk) 04:29, 7 December 2025 (UTC)
- Removed on Nov 11. Edit reverted by Gotitbro on Nov 25:
per RSP for EI, this is attributed (to Llewellyn in particular); take it to Talk otherwise
. Attribution doesn't address the concerns already raised. Is there an argument for inclusion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Fell (talk • contribs)
- I've removed it. For one thing, per WP:LEDE statements in the lede must be first established in the body of the article and should only represent the most significant points of an article. This was not, and is a minority viewpoint raised in a generally unreliable source -- its inclusion in the lede constitutes undue weight and is clearly inappropriate even with attribution. Furthermore, it fails reliablity and verifiability in this specific case: we cannot validate Llewellyn's extraordinary claim, because the underlying document is not public. Gotitbro, you seem to have missed what else RSP says about generally unreliable sources:
Editors show consensus that the source is questionable in most cases. The source may lack an editorial team, have a poor reputation for fact-checking, fail to correct errors, be self-published, or present user-generated content. Outside exceptional circumstances, the source should normally not be used, and it should never be used for information about a living person. Even in cases where the source may be valid, it is usually better to find a more reliable source instead. If no such source exists, that may suggest that the information is inaccurate
. These are not exceptional circumstances. It should be obvious that it's problematic to cite to a source that is by consensus unreliable on matters about Israel due to accuracy and poor fact checking issues combined with extreme bias (EI), to absolve a second entity that is credibly accused of systemic neutrality, accuracy, and bias issues (the BBC). Particularly when the latter recently admitted to "a serious breach in its own editorial standards" that it claims was "'among the most serious' breaches that can be committed by a broadcaster". Llewellyn himself wrote an entire op-ed in 2004, contemporaneously with this report, in which he "accuses British broadcasters, including his former employer, of systematic bias in covering the Arab-Israeli conflict". Of course, Llewellyn's claim is that the bias is actually in a pro-Israel direction, per WP:NPOV we're not supposed to be taking sides, so that's equally as bad. Regardless, it should be clear at this point that this source completely fails to meet the high bar we'd expect on this topic, for such a bold statement. A further reminder that the burden of demonstrating verifiability to a reliable source lies with the one who adds or restores material, and the responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. It's pretty clear that based on the talk page, there's not a consensus for including this. Please do not reinsert it without first developing consensus. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 17:41, 11 December 2025 (UTC)- @SWATJester: I was relying on the integrity of Llewellyn than the publication itself (the latter I would say was satisfied by the in text attribution to both of these), and included it in the lede as the article's already quite taught (no issues with a move down in the body either). And I wouldn't really consider the recent controversy to retroactively impinge on an earlier controversy.
- Also note that what Llewellyn stated regarding anti-Palestinian sentiment in British media or BBC in particular is not really controversial in the academic litrrature I have read on this.
- Nonetheless, I have no strong opposition to the disclusion if editor's prefer that. I guess we will all definitively know when the tax payer funded report is ultimately leaked or released. Gotitbro (talk) 05:43, 14 December 2025 (UTC)
- I am inclined to agree and support @Gotitbro inclusion with clear attribution rather than outright removal, for several policy-based reasons.
- First, per WP:RSP, The Electronic Intifada is classified as a generally unreliable source, not a deprecated one. The guidance there is explicit that such sources may be used with attribution in limited circumstances. This is precisely the scenario contemplated by that guidance. Attribution is not a cure-all, but it is the prescribed solution when a publication of questionable reliability is reporting a clearly attributed statement by a notable individual.
- Second, this is not an anonymous or marginal byline. Llewellyn is a long-standing professional journalist, formerly the BBC's Middle East correspondent, with subsequent work for The Guardian and other mainstream outlets. These affiliations are relevant under WP:RS, which evaluates reliability at both the author and publication levels. Regardless of views on The Electronic Intifada editorially, Llewellyn himself has an established reputation within mainstream journalism.
- Third, the statement in question is based on claimed first-hand knowledge. As a BBC correspondent whose work fell within the scope of the Balen inquiry, Llewellyn is a direct witness to the process he describes. Under WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, Wikipedia may report that "X said Y" even where the underlying material is not independently verifiable, provided the claim is clearly framed as his statement and not presented as established fact.
- In short, this is not about endorsing the claim, absolving the BBC, or treating The Electronic Intifada as generally reliable. It is about whether Wikipedia can neutrally report that Tim Llewellyn stated a particular position, with appropriate attribution. I believe we can, for the reasons stated. Lf8u2 (talk) 07:02, 14 December 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks, exactly what I wanted to say. I wouldn't have considered adding any of this in the first place if it was not coming from someone as solid as Llewellyn himself (was surprised find the complete absense of his reportage from the article when I first read it). Gotitbro (talk) 14:34, 14 December 2025 (UTC)
- That is not actually what WP:RSP says about unreliable sources, and I even quoted the exact text above:
Editors show consensus that the source is questionable in most cases. The source may lack an editorial team, have a poor reputation for fact-checking, fail to correct errors, be self-published, or present user-generated content. Outside exceptional circumstances, the source should normally not be used, and it should never be used for information about a living person. Even in cases where the source may be valid, it is usually better to find a more reliable source instead. If no such source exists, that may suggest that the information is inaccurate
It does not say "they may be used with attribution in limited circusmtances" -- it says they should not normally be used outside of exceptional circumstances. There are no exceptional circumstances here. It also instructs us to use better sources instead and if you cannot find reliable sources willing to make the same statement, that's a strong argument against inclusion. Though even then, it still would not be appropriate in the lede -- as noted, that is only for summarizing the most important points already made in the article body. So no, this is not about whether Wikipedia can *neutrally* report that Tim Llewellyn has stated a particular position with appropriate attribution (we can, with the right sourcing) -- it's about whether Electronic Intifada is the right sourcing for that neutral reporting (per clearcut, widespread consensus, it is not). - WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV does not state anything of the sort that "Wikipedia may report that "X said Y" even where the underlying material is not independently verifiable," -- in fact, it states the exact opposite:
"Opinions must still be verifiable and appropriately cited."
. This one is not. Also that very same page (our NPOV policy) makes it clear that we should not give WP:UNDUE weight to minority viewpoints.Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view. Views held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as the flat Earth). Giving undue weight to the view of a significant minority or including that of a tiny minority might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute.
It also saysIf a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with references to commonly accepted reference texts
. - So, where are the extraordinary circumstances that necessitate us using an unreliable source, to present what appears to be a viewpoint held by a single individual, in the article lede? Why is it that there have been no reliable sources put forth that could be used instead? If the only reason to use Electronic Intifada as a source for Llewelyn's statement is because no actually reliable sources are covering Llewelyn's claim, let alone making it themselves, that is definitionally the type of scenario in which we cannot use it. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 20:48, 14 December 2025 (UTC)
- First, I agree that this material does not belong in the lede. I have no objection to keeping this strictly in the body, framed as a reported claim rather than a finding.
- You are correct that WP:RSP describes Electronic Intifada as generally unreliable and that such sources should normally not be used outside exceptional circumstances. But the guidance does not establish an absolute prohibition. It leaves room for editorial judgment, especially when the claim is clearly attributed and not presented as fact. The operative question is whether this is one of those limited circumstances, not whether the source is reliable in general. Here the claim is not "the Balen Report found X" in wikivoice. It is: Tim Llewellyn stated that he had read the report and that it found no deliberate or systematic bias. That distinction matters under WP:V and WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. Wikipedia routinely reports that notable individuals said or claimed things even when the underlying material is inaccessible, provided we do not assert their claim as established truth. WP:V does not require that we independently verify the underlying document, only that the statement itself is verifiable to a reliable source. We can verify that Llewellyn made this statement.
- The fact that the report itself is private is not a defect of the sourcing, it is intrinsic to the topic. If inaccessibility alone were disqualifying, Wikipedia could not report on classified testimony, sealed court filings, or insider accounts, which it plainly does, with attribution.
- RS policy evaluates both publication and author. Llewellyn is not a marginal figure or anonymous blogger, he is a former BBC Middle East correspondent whose work was within the scope of the inquiry itself. That does not make him infallible, but it does make his testimony qualitatively different from commentary by an unconnected activist or pundit. Calling this
a viewpoint held by a single individual
understates that he is a direct participant describing first-hand experience. - Including a short, attributed sentence noting that a former BBC correspondent claimed the report found no systematic bias does not elevate that view to parity with other assessments, nor does it "absolve" the BBC. It merely documents that such a claim exists, by a notable insider, in a section discussing reactions and interpretations of the report. WP:UNDUE would apply if this were given prominence disproportionate to its coverage, which is why I agree it should not be in the lede and should be carefully contextualized.
- Finally, the absence of corroboration cuts both ways. The report has not been released. Therefore, no secondary source can independently confirm or refute Llewellyn's account. That does not render his statement unusable. It simply means it must be clearly framed as his claim and nothing more. WP:NPOV is satisfied by describing competing interpretations without endorsing any. Lf8u2 (talk) 01:05, 17 December 2025 (UTC)
- The guidance doesn't establish an absolute prohibition -- it establishes a general prohibition barring extraordinary circumstances, and there are no extraordinary circumstances here that I'm seeing being raised. Beyond "I like Llewellyn and generally trust him, and I think it should be included", why must *this Electronic Intifada source specifically* be included? What are the specific, extraordinary circumstances that give rise to this being an exception to the the quite clear and direct general consensus that says we should not use this source, that we should look for better sources instead, and that we should be extra careful and suspicious when we see that no other reliable source is repeating this either? Llewellyn's notability alone and proximity to the subject matter is not an extraordinary circumstance: those are table-stakes for inclusion by reliable sources in the first place and we've already established EI's general unreliability. Why must we take Llewellyn's attributed quote *from EI*, vs. any other source? If the only answer to that question is because "no other source exists, EI is the only place that would publish it", then as I said above, that's the exact red flag that our guidance warns against. And as for NPOV, it's not simply satisfied by describing competing interpretations without endorsing any -- it's satisfied by presenting competing interpretations in proportion to their representation in reliable sources. If a viewpoint cannot be found in reliable sources (such as no reliable sources being willing to publish Llewellyn's claim about the contents of the Balen Report) WP:NPOV is quite clear that we should not include it. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 01:23, 17 December 2025 (UTC)
|
Edit request 13 January 2026
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Description of suggested change: In March 2025 a copy of the report was leaked to The Electronic Intifada - an online site reporting Palestinian issues. The leak quoted the Balen report as finding "no evidence of deliberate or systematic bias."
Diff:
Warning Unnamed parameter |1= set to default value. Please change it. Failure to use {{Text diff}} to specify your requested text changes, if not adequately described above, may lead to your request being denied.
~2026-26545-2 (talk) 12:13, 13 January 2026 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want made. Please detail the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Day Creature (talk) 15:34, 13 January 2026 (UTC)