Talk:Bahamian Creole

Untitled

RE. use of the term 'creole'. Bahamian speech is technically a creole due to the hybridiseing of african, english and indigenous words, not a dialect which would be a form of english developed from english only in an isolated community. bahamians have come to be prejudice against the term, when we are by definition a creole society. should we not use it to describe our language? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.75.72.213 (talk) 02:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no such thing as Bahamian Creole

This page used to be called Bahamian dialect. There is a reason Bahamian English is known in the Bahamas as Bahamian dialect - it's because it is not a separate language. The people who insist that Bahamian dialect is a creole seem to be on some sort of reverse elitism crusade.

This is what Bahamian English sounds like: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154876631635224&set=vb.771850223&type=2&theater Does it sound like a separate language to you?

ash (talk) 08:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

You may not like it, but that's how it's classified. The issue is similar with Guyanese Creole, which has a lot of mutual intelligibility with English (particularly in its more acrolectal forms) but is still classified as a separate language. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 15:32, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Classified by whom? Is there a world committee somewhere of which you are the president? ash (talk) 09:41, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

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Merge proposal

I propose merging Bahamian Creole and Bahamian English into:

• Bahamian Dialect (first preference);
• Bahamian English (second preference).

@IslandGirl242, LewisGuile, Wolfdog, Conchstar, Jahamian876242, Aeusoes1, Buaidh, Rhythmnation2004, Lakemirror, Coakley4mical, GreatDarkSpot, CreateBahamas, BahamasHistorian, and ಢೠೊೠಃಈ:

Grateful for your thoughts at Talk:Bahamian English. Thanks

- MmeMaigret (talk) 07:31, 22 August 2025 (UTC)

Closing note

Closing this merge discussion: no consensus to merge has emerged.

MmeMaigret (talk)

Page move proposed

Following on from that discussion, I propose to move this page from "Bahamian Creole" to "Bahamian Dialect" on the basis of recognisability and naturalness.

This move is intended as a straightforward renaming; if anyone has concerns, please discuss here.

- MmeMaigret (talk) 12:20, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

@Mmemaigret I think it would be a good idea to do a formal single page move request using {{subst:requested move}}, which automatically lists the discussion at WP:Requested moves and alerts the relevant WikiProjects; this will attract more contributors and allow a wider consensus to be established. Pineapple Storage (talk) 12:11, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

I don't need to request a move, I can be bold and move the page myself. I left it as a discussion point on the talk page because the move is not urgent... and I'm happy to wait for people who have a natural interest in this page to comment.

Did you have a substantive comment or are you just giving me unsolicited advice, again? (I can suggest ways that you can help if you're at a loose end.)

- MmeMaigret (talk) 15:28, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

Of course it's up to you whether or not you initiate an RM, but I felt I should mention it, because WP:PCM specifically says that RMs should be used whenever there has been debate over article titles in the past (which is the case here, given that the page has undergone multiple moves and discussions since about 2007). There's also the fact that Bahamian DialectBahamian Dialect (the proposed target of the move) has a non-trivial edit history; this means that, per WP:MOVEOVERREDIRECT, a page mover will be needed to effect the move, so a technical move request will have to be submitted anyway.

Personally, I'm a fan of the definitive conclusion provided by a formal RM, and the requirement for an uninvolved closer, which ensures some outside input so that the discussion won't only involve people who have an opinion about the issue.

In terms of a substantive comment, I will reiterate that according to ngrams, "Bahamian Creole" is far more commonly-used than either "Bahamian Dialect", "Bahamian dialect", or "Bahamian Creole English". The same is true when "Bahamian Creole English" is subtracted from "Bahamian Creole" to eliminate duplicate matches; we can also take into account "Bahamas Creole", which has some minor usage (where "Bahamas Dialect" and "Bahamas dialect" do not), so can be added to usage of "Bahamian Creole".

Aside from the frequency of usage, we can look at Wikipedia-specific policy and guidelines. Wikipedia:Article titles § Use commonly recognizable names says:

Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered; see § Neutrality in article titles, below. [...] When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.

In my view, this passage alone essentially answers the question of whether this page should be moved. All reliable sources, including sources from Bahamian experts who are native speakers of the language (for instance, Patricia Glinton-Meicholas: see The Nassau Guardian's article), agree that Bahamian is a creole language and therefore that "Bahamian Creole" is accurate. However, there are sources that argue that describing the language as a "dialect" is inaccurate: for instance, Anne Lawlor (a linguist and historian who was educated in Nassau and is from a Bahamian family) in this Tribune article. (That article is about this talk at The Bahamas Historical Society, during which Lawlor refers to the language as "BCE" ie. Bahamian Creole English.)

Donnelly (1997, p. 21) says:

Bahamian Creole English (or Bahamian English Creole) is popularly known in The Bahamas as Bahamian Dialect. BCE/BD still exhibits a number of basilectical features, despite years of decreolization. Some of these features are pervasive throughout the Bahamian archipelago while others tend to be more restricted to the southeastern islands, which have been historically more removed - physically, economically and socially - from the mainstream.

This indicates that, in contrast to what the lead said until a few minutes ago, "Bahamian Creole English" actually refers to the whole spectrum, and "Bahamian Dialect" is the local term for the same thing.

Given that...

1. Bahamian DialectBahamian Dialect is a potentially ambiguous name that is disputed in reliable sources;
2. Bahamian Creole is an alternative name for the same thing;
3. ngrams indicates that Bahamian Creole is the most commonly-used term;

... I don't think a move is the best option in this case. Pineapple Storage (talk) 12:24, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Caribbean, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bahamas, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Redirect, Wikipedia talk:Article titles, Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (languages). Pineapple Storage (talk) 12:52, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

I've noted your opinion. Thanks.

- MmeMaigret (talk) 13:29, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

References

Bahamian Creole vis a vis Bahamian Dialect

@Wolfdog You indicated on the Bahamian English talk page that you are "not well-versed on this matter".

No sooner did I point out to Pineapple Storage that the Bahamian Creole page has only ever referred to Bahamian Creole in its title, did you made an unsourced change in order to distort the narrative. The change I made, on the other hand, was supported by source material.

I don't know why you're asserting ownership over these pages, but I suggest you stop with the disruptive edits. There is a lot to do on Wikipedia if you need to keep busy.

So, to reiterates Bahamian Creole is not known as Bahamian Dialect - the creolised varieties of Bahamian Dialect are.

- MmeMaigret (talk) 13:27, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

You reverting my edits after being explicitly asked to stop means you are willingly/knowingly moving towards edit warring. We may have to move to the Administrators' noticeboard. STOP making edits without talking.

What on earth do you mean that "the creolised varieties of Bahamian Dialect are" known as Bahamian Dialect? What are your actual contentions with my edits? Please be specific. I've left in most of your edits, in good faith. What's the problem? What, to take a very simple matter, is with your insistence on capitalizing dialect? See Yorkshire dialect, Manchester dialect, Northumbrian dialect, Gower dialect, etc. Wolfdog (talk) 13:48, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

In terms of WP:COMMONNAME, just so we all have the same data, Google Books Ngram Viewer shows that 'dialect' is currently only marginally more common than 'Dialect' for Bahamian, while the difference is more pronounced for Yorkshire, Manchester, Northumbrian and Gower. Pineapple Storage (talk) 15:42, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

@Mmemaigret @Wolfdog An edit war is less than ideal for everyone involved, so I think we should try and work out a compromise on the first sentence, even if it's a temporary placeholder until the move discussion above is concluded. The primary bolded name in the first sentence should really match the title of the article, with alternative names listed afterwards; until the move discussion is concluded, the title of the article remains Bahamian Creole, so to minimise confusion for readers this should be the first name listed in the first sentence. If/when the page is moved, the WP:ALTNAMEs can be reordered as appropriate.

For now, I propose the first sentence should be:

Bahamian Creole (BahC), also known as Bahamian dialect, Bahamian Creole English (BCE), or simply Bahamian, is an English-based creole language spoken in The Bahamas.

Note the the citations, with |quote= provided. To accommodate the {{efn}}, we could add a § Notes section to the article.

Does anyone have any objections to this as a placeholder first sentence, at least until the move discussion is concluded? Pineapple Storage (talk) 14:02, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

Bahamian Creole English is only the creolised varieties of the language. If you read my last version and the sourced material and quotes, that would be clear.

I am preparing to refer this to the noticeboard as we speak. MmeMaigret (talk) 14:04, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

So you object to the proposed first sentence? Pineapple Storage (talk) 14:06, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

I of course approve of this proposal as it's extremely close to my earlier wording and provides the best representation of the various names for this variety/varieties. Wolfdog (talk) 14:07, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I object to it, that's why I removed it. Wolfdog doesn't know what he's talking about - has he become an expert in the last week since he said he wasn't well versed on the subject. I speak this language that you think it a theoretical exercise.

Bahamian Dialect is the name covering all the varieties. You'd know that if came from the Bahamas.

You'd know that the suggestion that it's a creole only started being argued about 1982 by Shillings whose research was flawed and is still be debated. Why don't you go and read all of the sources that you added on the talk page? MmeMaigret (talk) 14:19, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

That doesn't explain why so many sources, including experts who are actually Bahamian (as mentioned above, see Patricia Glinton-Meicholas in The Nassau Guardian's article) now acknowledge its creole status and/or describe it as Bahamian Creole or Bahamian Creole English. Why is that @Mmemaigret?

(In my opinion—as someone who isn't Bahamian, but is a big fan of linguistic diversity, and not a fan of cultural imperialism—the reason that term only started being argued about 1982 is because of systemic bias and linguistic purism: two things that Wikipedia should strive to avoid. World Englishes have historically been under-researched and under-recognised, with English-based creoles and indigenised varieties of English being dismissed as 'inferior' to inner circle varieties of Standard English, rather than being recognised and studied within their own right. As part of the process of Decolonization, this tide has begun to turn, in favour of giving creoles and indigenised varieties the attention and respect they deserve.) Pineapple Storage (talk) 14:52, 31 August 2025 (UTC) Pineapple Storage (talk) 14:52, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

You not of fan of linguistic diversity - that's what you tell yourself but that's not true.

All of the research says there are multiple varieties of Bahamian English and Bahamians call our language Bahamian Dialect. But you keep glossing over that. Now it's obvious why, you think the stupid native don't realise they need to be decolonised.

In this article, you're referring to, Patricia Glinton says:

• "Whether you call it dialect or Bahamian Creole"

Does that seem definitive to you?

• Bahamians should consider themselves bilingual. And that they are in fact so clever that they speak two forms of the English language: Standard English and Bahamian dialect (or Creole), a subset of English — in a way.

Does that seem definitive to you?

• She said across the contiguous geography of the Bahamian islands, just like in Britain, different dialects are heard, one that’s most prominent can be heard across the islands of Eleuthera and Harbour Island.

She refers to them as dialects and tells you there's more than one variety. Have you looked at a map of the Bahamas and seen how big it is?

• But whether you call it dialect or Bahamian creole Glinton-Meicholas said it’s not bad English.

Again, is this definitive?

Why do you keep talking about experts from the Bahamas. Like I'm not from the Bahamas or two degrees of separation from Glinton herself or don't own both of Glintons books.

We are proud of Bahamian Dialect. It's our language(s). But we're also proud of what it's called. And some of us don't speak the creolised versions of Bahamian Dialect so we don't need you to erase our varieties because you're on a crusade. MmeMaigret (talk) 15:44, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

All of the research says there are multiple varieties of Bahamian English and Bahamians call our language Bahamian Dialect. But you keep glossing over that. Of course, Bahamian DialectBahamian Dialect (or Bahamian dialectBahamian dialect) is one term that's used in The Bahamas for the language that's spoken there. But claiming that All of the research says one thing or another would be glossing over the nuances of the linguistic situation in The Bahamas; sources do disagree, terminology does differ, but all we can do is try to accurately represent these disagreements and differences, and to give the article the least ambiguous, most neutral title that's available and, if possible, the title that the majority (or a relative majority) of sources can agree on.

Now it's obvious why, you think the stupid native don't realise they need to be decolonised. Firstly, I would appreciate you not misrepresenting me or casting aspersions about my intentions. Secondly, as I said, that last paragraph was my opinion—about linguistics' treatment of World Englishes generally. You had implied that the reason why the suggestion that it's a creole only started being argued about 1982 was because that suggestion isn't true; I offered an alternative argument, which is that the study and labelling of creole languages has increased as part of the wider process of decolonisation over the last few decades. (Look at the increase in usage of the word "creole" since 1960, for instance.)

Does that seem definitive to you? I'm not saying it's definitive, I'm saying that both terms are used, but Bahamian Creole is the one that is both less ambiguous and more neutral, so seems like the Wikipedia-friendly choice.

Why do you keep talking about experts from the Bahamas. Like I'm not from the Bahamas or two degrees of separation from Glinton herself or don't own both of Glintons books. Editors cannot be reliable sources, and article content has to be supported by reliable, secondary sources; it also has to give due weight to viewpoints, and accurately represent consensus among sources. Also, frankly, I don't have—and would never ask for—any evidence that you have any connection to The Bahamas; personal remarks shouldn't be made on Wikipedia, and decisions about article titles have to be based on policy and consensus, not just on one editor's opinion, or taking one editor at their word when they say they know best.

we don't need you to erase our varieties because you're on a crusade Again, I would appreciate you not misrepresenting me or casting aspersions about my intentions. I have no agenda here, other than to help improve Wikipedia's coverage of languages (the only reason I commented on Talk:Bahamian English § Merge proposal to begin with was because it popped up on Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages/Article alerts). That's why I'm trying to contribute to these discussions constructively, explaining my arguments thoroughly and basing them in reliable sources, with the goal of establishing a WP:CONSENSUS before making any potentially controversial edits. Pineapple Storage (talk) 16:45, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

I'm not misrepresenting you. These are your words:

World Englishes have historically been under-researched and under-recognised, with English-based creoles and indigenised varieties of English being dismissed as 'inferior' to inner circle varieties of Standard English, rather than being recognised and studied within their own right. As part of the process of Decolonization, this tide has begun to turn, in favour of giving creoles and indigenised varieties the attention and respect they deserve.

Second, I said:

(1) All of the research says there are multiple varieties of Bahamian English; and

(2) Bahamians call our language Bahamian Dialect.

Find me one source that says there is only one language.

There are multiple varieties. Only the creolised varieties - obviously! - are creole.

You're not trying to reach consensus. You're trying to stop me from moving the page. That's been your aim from the beginning when you suggested that I request a move rather than making a substantive comment.

You even went so far as to suggest that you would initiate a request move for a page you don't want moved.

The joke is I'm not moving the page. I've revised the page so that it doesn't need to be moved because now it only refers to creolised varieties.

MmeMaigret (talk) 17:56, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

These are your words Exactly, and yet according to you, I think the stupid native don't realise they need to be decolonised and I'm on a crusade. I never said (or even implied) either of these things, because they aren't true; that's the definition of misrepresentation.

This is (inexplicably, I think) an WP:ANI issue now, so I'm not going to discuss the content or titles of Bahamian English or Bahamian Creole any more, and I'm unsubscribing from this thread. If you're going to respond to this comment, please only do so at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Bahamian Creole/Bahamian Dialect, or open a request at WP:DRN. Pineapple Storage (talk) 18:39, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

@Mmemaigret @Wolfdog Just so you both know, I'm inclined to request dispute resolution at WP:DRN (for Bahamian Creole and Bahamian English, as they need to be consistent and shouldn't contradict each other). Nobody owns the articles, so a consensus has to be reached, and from my perspective at this stage it doesn't look like that will be possible (especially outside of the formal WP:RM process) without mediation. Would anyone object to this? Pineapple Storage (talk) 15:43, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

They don't contradict each other as I've made them consistent. MmeMaigret (talk) 15:46, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

I'm with you, Pineapple. MM feels they can monopolize these pages and is now accusing US of being the disruptive ones. (I, for one, have stopped editing, so I know I'm on solid ground.) Wolfdog (talk) 16:17, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

Per the MOS, we use the word 'dialect' in article titles to refer to dialects. Whatever its local name, this is not a dialect but a creole [and essentially the same language as Gulla]. Thus an article on 'Bahamian dialect' would be on the non-creole Bahamian dialect of English -- that is, a duplicate of Bahamian English, not on Bahamian creole, so we'd still need the creole article.

I suppose we could move the article and present it as the Bahamian dialect of Gulla rather than of English, if we have adequate sources to support such a move. — kwami (talk) 13:01, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

In any case, until consensus is achieved here, the lead should remain status quo ante. Mathglot (talk) 06:53, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

Refs

Notes

References

Moving forward

I'd love to roll this back to my edit on August 31. Why? Because the dialect being "ignored" sounds weaselly; "Murray" is a person who's never explained; "dialect" is kept lowercase on WP, as I've already explained. I also think it's a good move to use Pineapple's lede sentence:

Bahamian Creole (BahC), also known as Bahamian dialect, Bahamian Creole English (BCE), or simply Bahamian, is an English-based creole language spoken in The Bahamas.

We could also leave in the new Dialect v Creole section though it would have to be slightly renamed and internally tweaked to conform better to WP conventions. Wolfdog (talk) 21:20, 2 September 2025 (UTC) Wolfdog (talk) 21:20, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

It's now been a couple weeks, so I'm implementing the change. Wolfdog (talk) 20:52, 12 September 2025 (UTC)

References

Please take this down

please take down this inference that there is such a thing as bahamian creole. This simply does not exist. We in the Bahamas speak the Queens English along with our Bahamian dialect. Please remove the creole from this information as it is totally incorrect. ~2025-31837-83 (talk) 16:24, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

This article has 27 citations. If those sources are not being accurately summarized, please detail the errors in how they are summarized. If they are accurately summarized, but you disagree with their claims, there's not much we can do for you. You are free to disagree with what the sources summarized in this article say. 331dot (talk) 16:27, 8 November 2025 (UTC)