Talk:Bagramyan Battalion

Terrorists or no?

In such conflicts as Georgian-Abkhaz war all parties engaged in attacks against civilians. See Georgian-Abkhaz Conflict for references. We don't call British, Nazi or USSR terrorists although they certainly attacked civilians during WW2.

Moreover this group is not in any of the terrorist group list of any significant country (US, UK, EU, Australia, Russia). Alaexis 10:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Could be,I consider them mercenaries payed off by the abhkaz government to be a tool against the georgians and show that other minorities in the region took the abhkaz side while many armenians were fighting on the georgian side as well,they were practically terrorists because they did not formally affiliate themselves with the abhkaz government(i think?) but i dont know Lukagogsadze (talk) 18:23, 5 February 2026 (UTC)

I called MIPT group directly. They confirmed, this group is NOT a terrorist group, but a Nationalist/Separatist as defined by category section on the web site, and they NEVER referred to this group as Terrorist on their web site. Also they got this information from Information Source - Tbilisi Prime News. Which is biased towards georgian version of what happened. Steelmate 19:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Its in many terrorist group lists.

and also in the Human Rights Reports, calling that "battalion" as terrorist organization. Ldingley 18:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Which report? For which date? How is it called? Please give us source. Steelmate 19:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Just checked, user Ldingley is : "This user has been blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia"... So please discard his information as unreliable. Steelmate 19:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

In any case, we can't use the "terrorist" label on Wiki simply because it's POV and it's a word to avoid. -- Aivazovsky (talk) 01:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

More than enough reliable sources are mentioned to label Bagramyan Battalion as terrorist unit.--ZviadPochkhua (talk) 21:39, 23 June 2016 (UTC)ZviadPochkhua

==What reference?==Here () it's written: base of operation - Georgia. All the activies mentioned below also were carried out in Georgia. Alaexis 08:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

This link says its in Russia. KazakhPol 08:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

According to that list 'Oklahoma Constitutional Militia' is also in Russia :). Some mistake, I presume since on the organisation's page on the same site it's written that it was based in Georgia. Alaexis 08:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Good point. KazakhPol 08:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Atrocities (Excesses) by Georgian Army leading to creation of Bagramyan Batallion

Folks, we all know that armenians didn't want to get involved into the conflict initially, but then when georgian army came and started killing, raping, robbing armenian villages, from the perspective of self-defence abkhazian armenians created this batallion. Please look for information about incident at Labra. And please put here into discussion board all the info you can get, so we can represent this on a Wikipedia page in an NPOV manner.Thanx. Steelmate 13:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No martyrology, please. Armenians fought on both sides. And those who supported Abkhaz, did so even before the outbreak of hostilities.--Kober^Talk 13:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

They didn't support Abkhaz, they supported their homes from those who came on tanks and started robbing them instead of protecting, and calling themselfs Georgian Army, made up from people who went to Abkhazia to loot and steal along with other real patriots of Georgia. Any way , I don't support any war, including the war that georgian politians started in Abkhazia. Tbilisi armenians didn't fought for their homes as nobody endangered them, they had to fight as they were called upon by georgian government. Big difference. Steelmate 14:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Judging from your latest post, you have a very strange undestanding of NPOV. Smbat Sahakian, so brutally killed by Abkhaz or their hero Shamil Basayev, was not from Tbilisi. He was the leader of Abkhazia's Armenian community and member of the de jure government. Anyway, I'm not going to prove you anything and waste my time and energy in this unproductive discussion. --Kober^Talk 15:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Steelmate, please consult Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Armeniapedia cannot be accepted as a reliable source because it is "an online encyclopedia about everything related to Armenia and Armenians that anyone can edit." By that logic, we can also use a Georgian version of Wikipedia or any similar project.--Kober^Talk 17:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Kober, it says nothing against using other wiki projects. The Armeniapedia is valuable resource to everything related to Armenia. I would love to see something like that done by Georgians. Steelmate 17:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Armeniapedia is not a scholarly source or mainstream media outlet. Anyone can put anything there to say nothing about its Armenocentrist character. You will have to prove that it really is "valuable" enough to be used in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia. Here's another useful guidline for you: WP:3RR. --Kober^Talk 17:12, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Btw, we have a well-organized group of anti-Georgian users on Wikipedia. So, welcome to the club! In the meantime, I'm trying to bring your additions more in line with NPOV standards and please don't POV it again.--Kober^Talk 17:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Btw, there is a big Anti-Armenian group in Wikipedia and in Georgia as well, welcome to the group, you must receive another barnstar for you truly scholarily Anti-Armenian work! Thanks for all valuable suggestion to make it more NPOV, it is my primary goal. Steelmate 17:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ha-ha... So now I'm also anti-Armenian? Can you please provide any example of my "anti-Armenian" scholarship? --Kober^Talk 17:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's stop this baby talk, the material that you are representing has bias against armenians. This shouldn't be that way. The truth is in the middle, and only by representing both views we can see the reality. I am glad we have made a pretty good article that describes atrocities in that war. Let now the reader decide and judge. I am against any wars and any inhumane acts. So the more truely we describe the ugliness of the situation the more it will prevent wars in the future I think. Steelmate 17:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... And I'm pretty much sure that the current version of the article reads more like a Gothic story than a decent encyclopedic entry. It was your choice, though.--Kober^Talk 17:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It has now all the main points, we can arrange the stylistics and add more details later. By the way which article as a good example of description of military organization you can represent for consideration of stylistical rewrite? Steelmate 17:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Armenians "largely supported the Abkhazians"

If that were the case then why did the Abkhaz kill Sumbat Saakian? It's clear that the Armenians were on both sides during the conflict. Even the AGBU article said that the Armenian community was "divided" by the war. -- Aivazovsky (talk) 23:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually they also killed, for example, Raul Eshba who was ethnic Abkhaz (considering him a traitor, I presume). There were people of all ethnicities supporting (and even fighting on) both sides. Numerous sources (see links below) show, nevertheless, that most of Armenians supported the Abkhaz. Alæxis_¿question? 10:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Generally, what the sources tell us is that ethnic Armenians and Russians were predominately neutral at the begining of the war but then predominately supported the Abkhaz later on due to excessive heavy-handedness of the Georgian Forces. Sumbat Saakian was killed presumably because he was considered part of the former Georgian regime in Abkhazia. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Aivazovsky's observation is correct and Sahakian was not the only Armenian killed, tortured or expelled by the separatists. But it is not so easy to prove anything to some of our colleagues. The issue was extensively discussed on Talk:War in Abkhazia. Even the Bagramyan Battalion was perceived as a threat by the Abkhaz ethnocratic regime. There were a series of clashes between this formation and Abkhaz-Chechen units in 1994. --Kober^Talk 06:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, as per Kober, please see Talk:War in Abkhazia especially some of the excellent sources provided by user:Alaexis here and here.

Dear Aivazovsky, there were Armenians fighting on the Georgian side, mainly from Tbilisi and Javakheti. Saakian was the representative of Armenian community in Abkhazia (he was also a minister in the Plenum). He was killed due to his condemnation of Bagramian battalion and appealing to Armenians who were fighting on Abkhaz side to maintain neutrality. Raul was not also only Abkhaz who was killed. Timur Achba, Dr Malkhaz Chirikba, brothers Avizba and i don't mentions many ordinary Abkhaz who were killed because of being either helping Georgians (hiding people or taking them out of Abkhazia), protesting against the war or refusing to side with separatists. But as for your question Aviazovsky, yes there were number of Armenians fighting on the Georgian side. Iberieli (talk) 22:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Quotes removal

What is the reason for quote removal? Now this article has no quotes at all. Compare to how many quotes are in article on Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia which this article links to. I believe those two articles need to be balanced. Steelmate (talk) 16:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

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Terrorist organisation

The recent edits led me to look at the sources for the claim that BB is recognised as a terrorist group internationally and not just by Georgia. The source for it is this article published in a Georgian journal.

“ The Bagramyan Battalion directed its attacks against Georgians living in Abkhazia. Bagramyan battalion is listed as Nationalist-Separatist Groups under Ideological and Organization/Goal Structural Classification of Terrorist Groups in research by James A. Piazza, University of North Carolina, U.S. Bagramyan Battalion is listed among Officially Blacklisted Extremist or Terrorist Organizations in research book by Benjamin J.E. Freedman The Routledge Handbook of Terrorism Research, edited by Alex P. Schmid. ”

I was able to check The Routledge Handbook of Terrorism Research and it actually says something different: the BB is in the World Directory of Extremist, Terrorist and Other Organisations Associated with Guerrilla Warfare, Political Violence, Protest, Organised Crime and Cyber-crime. In other words they do not say explicitly that it's a terrorist organisation. Note that this is the full list of entities from Georgia in the directory (p. 355):

• Abkhaz Separatists
• Bagramyan Battalion
• Forest Brothers (Georgia)
• Free Swaneti Organisation (Abkhazia)
• Gali Militia
• Kutajsij Clan (organised crime group)
• Tengiz Kitovani Partisans
• Mkhedrioni
• Salvation Corps
• South Ossetian Separatists
• White Legion
• Zviadists

It appears that this is simply a list of all groups engaging in violence since early 1990s in Georgia and I don't see much value in mentioning it in relevant articles. Considering that The Financial misrepresented what The Routledge Handbook of Terrorism Research said, I think we should also be super careful with other things sourced from it. Alaexis_¿question? 08:27, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

And the battalion doesn't even have any political or social objectives. From what I understand, Georgians just use the word "terrorist" because it's a scare-word, with no regard for what it actually means. --Steverci (talk) 03:47, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

We can say that it was included in the TKB database of terrorist groups, but since it's not recognised as such by next to no one, it should not occupy a prominent place in the article per WP:UNDUE. Alaexis_¿question? 06:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Armenian bias?

Most of the sources used in the part where it says that armenians took up arms because of an initial georgian attack are all russian and armenian right?all are also released during georgian war time and tensions between russia and georgia, And also the yerevan magazine being mentioned?Its also pretty known news in georgia and in armenia that some armenians already allied with the abhkazians before the initial war,But that also isnt mentioned here,but it is in many other articles about this in other languages,Not trying to start a fight here or anything,Just asking a question,Also would be nice if some people replaced the sources with newer more internationally accepted ones,Rather than ones that look blatantly biased towards one side Lukagogsadze (talk) 17:29, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh and i also forgot, Whats also known news is that armenians were very split during this time,They fought on both sides, There even was a high profile armenian casualty caused by abhkazians i forgot the name though, It was sumbat something, Nevertheless, Id like this checked out too if people dont mind Lukagogsadze (talk) 17:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I have added some Georgian politician and general sources to help resolve any bias concerns. Vanezi (talk) 21:22, 25 June 2026 (UTC)

The article is by no means neutral and reflects pro-Armenian POV. First of all, Armenians in Abkhazia collaborated with separatist authorities and voted for preservation of Soviet Union in 1991 referendum, while Georgian authorities banned this referendum on territory of Georgia and instead organized Georgian independence referendum, which was boycotted by Armenians. No other Georgian region organized pro-Soviet referendum except of Abkhazia where there were separatist authorities. During this time, Armenians were already siding with separatists and effectively Russia, then, in July 1992, before the beginning of war, Armenian deputies of Abkhazian parliament yet again sided with separatist deputies and voted for "independence from Georgia", although this vote failed because it did not manage enough votes (because Georgian deputies did not vote), separatist authorities declared independence based on vote without enough quorum. All of this was before war and claims that Armenians only sided with separatists after the beginning of war because of supposed Georgian actions is blatantly false, propagandistic claim. There were Russophilic and pro-separatist tendencies within Armenians of Abkhazia well before the beginning of any war. Rutdam (talk) 05:16, 2 July 2026 (UTC)

Do you have a source for any of this? Who are these collective Armenians and what is their connection to the battalion? Vanezi (talk) 18:59, 7 July 2026 (UTC)

Removing supposed justification for creating Bagramyan Battalion

I am going to remove the justification cited here for creating Bagramyan Battalion. First of all, the very first sentence of the "History" section can be classified as nothing else other than original research (WP:OR). Saying "Georgian troops entered Abkhazia and started commit atrocities against non-Georgians" is gross oversimplification of whole situation. While I am not going to deny that there were some incidents, such kind of sentence does not reflects reality and the cited source itself (Human Rights Watch). Saying that "Georgian troops entered Abkhazia and started commit atrocities against non-Georgians" implies as if Georgian army entered the territory to commit atrocities against non-Georgians and thus forced Armenians to create Bagramyan Battalion. This is not supported by Human Rights Watch, which does not even mentions Bagramyan Battalion at all. Moreover, the Human Rights Watch describes incidents in the context of conflict and ongoing war, it does not simply says that Georgian army entered Abkhazia and started to commit atrocities. It is also worth paying attention that the Human Rights Watch reference does not even have any page indicated, further strengthening the argument about original research. I want to emphasize that the Bagramyan Battalion is simply not mentioned in this report at all. We can not tie the creation of the Bagramyan Battalion to the incidents described in Human Right Watch, while Human Right Watch does not even mentions the creation of this battalion. This is simply original research and gross violation of WP:OR. It needs to be removed. This is not how Wikipedia works.
After this, we have three Russian-language sources. First of all, there is prognosis.ru, which mentions creation of Bagramyan battalion. Then it mentions quote by Stanislav Lakoba: "оккупанты (имеются в виду войска Госсовета Грузии- С.М.) расстреливали мирных граждан, подвергали их пыткам и насилиям, сжигали дома и села, чинили расправу не только над абхазским, но и над армянским, русским, греческим населением". We simply can not rely on this source. Stanislav Lakoba was a separatist historian who was member of separatist forces during the 1992-1993 war. He is not independent and reliable source, he was participant in the conflict, and he has a vested interest to portray Georgia in bad light. Even the cited source mentions him as "official Abkhazian historiograph". He is ideologue and historian of separatism. His claims can not be used here.
Second source needs to be removed too. It is an article by Krasnaya Zvezda, an official newspaper of Russian army. Everything is clear here too. This is too biased and unreliable source for such claims. It needs to be removed too. Of course, Russian army will try to portray Georgia in bad light as much as possible. But this is not neutral, third-party reliable source required for Wikipedia articles.
Third source is Spartak Zhidkov, who is another supporter of separatists, he has been member of state information agency "Abkhazpress" since 1995. In 1996-1997, he was working in information-analytical departament of separatist Abkhazian Ministry of Internal Affairs, in 1997-2000 - in the separatist administartion of President of Abkhazia. Then in 2004-2005 in the press center of presidential candidate in the separatist elections, Sergei Bagapsh. Since 2010, he is a member of "Ainar", media-club in Abkhazia. He is directly affiliated with separatist authorities. This too simply can not serve as neutral, third-party reliable source. WP:RS is once again violated.
Then we have a source by "Armenian General Benevolent Union", an article by Vahan Ishkhanyan. He says that Bagramyan Battalion was raised after few months following beginning of the war due to "Georgian attacks", and for this claim, he cites Artavazd Saretsian, editor of the Sukhumi-based Hamshen newspaper issued in Armenian and Russian. Basically, an editor of Armenian newspaper based in separatist Abkhazia. This too is not a neutral, reliable source. We can not cite this in wikivoice. This is gross violation of Wikipedia rules such as WP:NPOV and WP:RS. I will delete these sources and claims in Wikivoice, I am going to only retain a quote by Artavazd Saretsian and specifically attribute the claims that Bagramyan Battalion was created because of "Georgian attacks" to him. To do otherwise will simply be a violation of NPOV, RS and OR rules. Dopcol (talk) 19:34, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

Please re-read page 5 of the Human Rights Watch source:

We have received countless reports on both sides that combatants captured during combat were killed and abused, primarily by the Georgians, and that combatants raped and otherwise used sexual terror as an instrument of warfare. Human Rights Watch believes these allegations to be credible.

Georgian troops reportedly abused not only ethnic Abkhaz but Armenians, Russians and Greeks as well, believing them to be allied with the Abkhaz.

The page number is cited but seems to be off by one, I will correct it. Vanezi (talk) 17:51, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

Please see WP:OR (WP:SYNTH) rule. The Human Right Watch report in question does not even mentions Bagramyan Battalion at all. It can not be used as a source for why Bagramyan Battalion was created, because it does not even mentions this battalion and its creation. This is classic example of original research. Dopcol (talk) 18:04, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

But it does mention important information about Armenians in Abkhazia during the time.

Regarding the other sources, for Red Star please give an example of bias that could call the source into question. Just it being a Russian source isn't enough. The author Konstantin Rashchepkin is very credible and has even been cited in Western think tanks. Sergey Markedonov is also very well cited, and Lakoba's report of "carried out reprisals not only against the Abkhaz, but also against the Armenian, Russian, and Greek populations" is identical to the HRW findings. Spartak Zhidkov is considered an independent expert by Western think tanks but since he only makes a brief mention of looting, I attributed the source to other information like the battalion size. And I agree the first sentence is an oversimplification, so I rewrote it to be more close to what the HRW report says.

Please be aware that you technically cannot edit this article yet because WP:GS/AA allows only extended-confirmed editors. Vanezi (talk) 18:38, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Your edits constitute WP:SYNTH, because you attempt to fork and synthetize various information from different sources, which individually might be supported by these sources, but they don't "reach or imply a conclusion" you are trying to make. Human Rights Watch report does not mentions Bagramyan battalion at all, and it does not reachs or implies your conclusion that Bagramyan battalion was created because of incidents described by Human Rights Watch. Please stop edits which constitute WP:SYNTH and violate Wikipedia rules.

Krasnaya Zvezda "is the official newspaper of the Russian Armed Forces", which was involved in Abkhazia conflict against Georgia. Please see WP:NPOV and WP:BIAS. At best what can be done is to attribute information to Krasnaya Zvezda, but it can not be cited in wikivoice. This is non-neutral, non third-party source.

According to WP:RS, a publisher of the source affects its reliability. Due to the source being published by official newspaper of Russian army, which participated in this conflict on separatist side, this source can not be considered a neutral, non third-party source. And the fact that those authors are cited by some Western think tanks does means they are considered as reliable sources on everything, especially when they are published in Russian army newspaper, and especially on contentious claims about the other side of the conflict (moreover, your cited books are about Chechen war and Russian air force during Georgia conflict, which are different topics from the one we are talking about). Please see WP:RS.

The fact that Lakoba's description of incidents is identical to Human Rights Watch (I am not saying it is, just repeating your claim), it does not means that creation of Bagramyan Battalion can be explained with these incidents, which is not stated or implied by Human Rights Watch, but is only stated by Stanislav Lakoba, unreliable source for such claims. Once again, you are attempting WP:SYNTH, attempting to reach or imply conclusion not stated or implied by reliable source (Lakoba does not constitutes a neutral, third-party, reliable source on this issue.

Spartak Zhidkov is a journalist working in separatist news agencies. Some source mistakingly referring to him as "independent expert" does not changes this. Moreover, another source refers to him as "Abkhaz political analyst". Citing him in wikivoice is violation of WP:NPOV and WP:RS. Dopcol (talk) 19:37, 31 July 2026 (UTC)