Talk:Australian Championship

Requested move 31 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus to wait until the formal name announcement from Football Australia. (closed by non-admin page mover) Frostly (talk) 00:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

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National Second Division → National Second TierNational Second Tier – As confirmed in today's announcement, the competition will officially be called the National Second Tier. The page should be moved to reflect this. Milkk7 (talk) 02:23, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

From your link (emphasis mine): "Football Australia can confirm the competition’s name, brand identity, marketing collateral, and the new trophy design will be unveiled in the coming months." So "National Second Tier" is still a placeholder name. BLAIXX 02:31, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah that's fair, I should have probably read a bit more than a single sentence. :). Milkk7 (talk) 02:50, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

In view of that you should IMO now withdraw the request. It won't now save terribly much trouble but might save a little. And we are all learners here. Andrewa (talk) 09:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Football Australia copyrighted an "Australia Championship" logo earlier this year, I think we should hold off on a new name for the page until everything is announced. 2 brown eyes (talk) 04:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• Wait: let's wait until Football Australia reveal its true name next year. It's still on the table and everything may change. HiddenFace101 (talk) 10:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. No case to answer. It's not even clear that this is the new official name and not terribly relevant even if and when it is. Andrewa (talk) 09:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
• Wait: . . . until Football Australia reveal the final name next year. Matilda Maniac (talk) 09:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post move

Just think it should be noted that the National Second TierNational Second Tier redirect is in place (and has been for more than a year). It's obviously needed and I hope this comment might save others from needing to check it. Andrewa (talk) 08:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 12 February 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. DrKay (talk) 11:01, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

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National Second Division → Australian Championship – Name is official https://x.com/AusChampionship/status/1889479767914848381 Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 01:07, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

• Support: Yes. Milkk7 (talk) 02:17, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose: We need to tell people what sport this is about. The current name doesn't explicitly do that, but at least it sounds like a soccer competition. The proposed name would give the reader no idea whatsoever. It could be anything. HiLo48 (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

• Support: Name officially announced by FA. Disagree with Hilo48 oppose argument, should we change A-league to A-league Soccer Competition? Simione001 (talk) 02:31, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

No. Although it's not an ideal name currently. One of the problems with this discussion is that it will mainly attract people who already know what these things mean. Do try to put yourself in the position of someone who doesn't. HiLo48 (talk) 02:38, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Wouldn't the lead sentence in the article explain all that? Simione001 (talk) 03:13, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Hardly. It doesn't even explain how a competition that doesn't include the best teams in the country can be called a national championship. HiLo48 (talk) 03:20, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

• Support per article titling policy. This probably could have been moved without a discussion. BLAIXX 03:16, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
• Support: Absolutely, as a major contributer to the page it makes sense to change the name given that the new name is finalised and announced, the competition will. be referred to as the Australian Championship from now on. The National Second Division can be included as a former name though. 2 brown eyes (talk) 04:27, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
• Support: per nom. Matilda Maniac (talk) 10:51, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
• Support: National Second Division update. Makejets (talk) 4:54, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

What? HiLo48 (talk) 05:49, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

• Support: given it is announced by Football Australia, it is clear the name is officially accepted. Have to admit it from now on.

HiddenFace101 (talk) 17:17, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

• Support: Competition identity is now confirmed by Football Australia. FastCube (talk) 00:02, 19 February 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. The proposed name is less recognisable to the general reader. Plus, the nomination and all of the above support !votes appear to be based on the mistaken belief that we follow official names. We don't. They are relevant but only as primary sources, so, not very relevant at all according to our article naming policy. The new official name may well become the common name, but until then, we stick with the current common name. Andrewa (talk) 04:26, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

The competition has not yet started, so it may be a while before anything becomes a WP:COMMONNAME. Based upon one of the criteria for WP:NAMECHANGES: "If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match", how long is that period of time to define "routinely"? One month, six-months, after the first season concludes? Matilda Maniac (talk) 04:37, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

We don't know. It may be never. But it hasn't happened yet, so we don't change this article's name now. HiLo48 (talk) 04:45, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Exactly. I referred above to wp:ball. It seems to be the relevant policy here, don't you think? Andrewa (talk) 10:54, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Explanation needed

This article needs to explain how a competition that doesn't include the best teams in the country can be called a national championship. HiLo48 (talk) 22:44, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Is there a specific line in the article you object to because the phrase "national championship" is never used verbatim. Besides, it is certainly a nation-wide sports tournament. BLAIXX 23:32, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

I stuffed up a little. I shall try to better express my concern. This article needs to explain how a competition that doesn't include the best teams in Australia can be called the Australian championship. HiLo48 (talk) 02:23, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

It's called that because the organizers of the competition decided to call it that. I don't understand why that would need an explanation? BLAIXX 02:55, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

Obviously it needs an explanation because it's a competition that doesn't include the best teams in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 03:31, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

Just because its a called a championship doesn't mean it has have all the best teams in it. What about the English Championship. I don't understand your argument. Simione001 (talk) 03:41, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

Please don't mistake me (or most of our readers) for an expert on soccer. I'm an Australian who loves most sport, and have never encountered a national championship that doesn't involve the best competitors in the nation. I know nothing about the English Championship. Is that another weirdly named soccer competition whose name and structure Australian soccer has typically blindly copied? HiLo48 (talk) 03:54, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

It's actually fairly common around the world for sports to have national second-tier competitions (i.e. leagues, championships, etc). I don't think this article requires an explicit disclaimer but we could be mindful as to not suggest in any way that it is the primary Australian soccer tournament. BLAIXX 19:04, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

Yes, that summarises what concerns me here. The term "national championship", or more specifically here "Australian championship" very clearly suggests to me a competition to determine the best team in the land. If it's not, we need to explain that to readers not already familiar with the structure of soccer in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 22:20, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

If there is a need to explain this, a solution is to simply add suitably referenced prose in the lead section to explain and avoid potential ambiguity. Matilda Maniac (talk) 23:53, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

That would certainly help. HiLo48 (talk) 03:00, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

Mate that's literally the name of the league. Lol. Matt jobe watson (talk) 05:59, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

Yes, and it doesn't make sense. How can a competition that doesn't include the best teams in the country be called a national championship? Maybe soccer aficionados think it's fine but not all our readers are soccer aficionados. HiLo48 (talk) 06:29, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

Its marketing, it doesn't have to make sense. The Superbowl is also called the "football championship of the world" by the Americans and theres no other nation competing in that tournament. Perhaps it is time to WP:DROPTHESTICK and/or add some text into the article stating that it is a national championship that doesn't involve the best competitors in the nation, and provide a reference that notes this anomaly. Matilda Maniac (talk) 06:44, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

As I've already said, I am NOT the expert here. I am the outsider, the kind of reader you soccer fans should want to cater to. I don't know why or how this stuff is defined. Presumably you do. Why don't you want to make the article better? BTW - Our Superbowl article addresses the naming convention problem with "World Championship Game". Our World Series article addresses that bit of seeming overreach with the name. This article could better explain this stuff too. HiLo48 (talk) 06:54, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

It's not about whether or not you or I think it makes sense mate. Hahaha. It's literally it's name. We aren't naming the league here, we're creating the Wikipedia page for it! Matt jobe watson (talk) 09:44, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

But when the name doesn't make much sense to those not already hard core soccer fans, it really MUST be explained. HiLo48 (talk) 09:55, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

The first clause in the lead sentence describes this as a second-tier competition. There is the explanation, whether one identifies as a hard-core soccer fan or not. I still suggest HiLo48 needs to add suitably referenced prose in the lead section, to explain and avoid potential ambiguity to their satisfaction. Whether theres an appropriate reference available is a matter for research.Matilda Maniac (talk) 06:09, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

Club shorthands

@J man708 and Matilda Maniac: I'm wondering why Avondale FC needs to have an "FC" affixed, but not other clubs without a moniker, such as South Hobart FC, and South Melbourne FC. Regardless, it's weird to be truncating any names for a table to begin with – they're typically where readers would look first for a summary of the most important information. It's not like there's a design need either, as the "FC"s would fit just fine in the table without forcing a line break. — AFC Vixen 🦊 00:52, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

Thats the normal format that seems to be used for Australian soccer (aka football) teams. If one word, add the FC; if two or more, don't. I think that came about because of disambiguation issues, many years ago. There's no right or wrong, and if you want to object, there will be little traffic here at this talk page, I suggest you would go to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Australia task force to get a wide audience, wider range of views. Matilda Maniac (talk) 00:57, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

Tildawg seems to have it in one. It's the way clubs seem to be referred to in media, too (such as the Australia Cup site). If the team lacks a moniker, it's FC. Like Sydney FC. - J man708 (talk) 01:26, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

Then I'd assume there's no objection to adding "FC" to South Hobart and South Melbourne – the other two clubs lacking monikers – at the very least? I feel vague, undefined "disambiguation issues" from "many years ago" aren't present in this article nor 2025 Australian Championship, therefore I don't see a need to raise a broader discussion on this... — AFC Vixen 🦊 18:25, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

No I didn't write moniker - one word names vs two (or more) word names.

I could probably hunt down the discussions on this from that long ago, I just haven't for you at this point, so, sorry if it seems vague. Its the format that has been used for all the Australian soccer articles on the National Premier Leagues, Australia Cup, and "Seasons in #Federation Soccer" for at least 10 years, so it's quite established. Matilda Maniac (talk) 22:08, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, I said "moniker" there incorrectly. The only one I'm unsure on is St George FC? Personally I add FC whenever I write it. - J man708 (talk) 16:13, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

I still don't see the reason, here. Why would removing a qualifier like "FC" cause a disambiguation issue, anyways? Shouldn't adding qualifiers resolve disambiguation issues? And what's with the seemingly arbitrary one-word limit? You explain what, but don't explain why, and it's admittedly starting to get a little frustrating. — AFC Vixen 🦊 20:46, 26 September 2025 (UTC)