Talk:Anne Scargill

Requested move 18 August 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. This discussion hinged on the question of WP:NAMECHANGES—did sources from after the subject's divorce primarily identify her under her maiden name ("Anne Harper") or did her married name ("Anne Scargill") remain the WP:COMMONNAME? The RM appears to have converged to a consensus that her married name is the COMMONNAME at present, with the only opponent to the move shifting to neutral as the discussion progressed. However, given that the subject died only months ago, it may be worth watching for new posthumous sources about her to monitor if the COMMONNAME changes in the future or not. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:40, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

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Anne Harper → Anne Scargill – Anne did not change her name back to Harper after her divorce to Arthur, see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lzkxzx7qvo and https://num.org.uk/news/rest-in-peace-anne-scargill/. Her own book also lists her name as "Anne Scargill" not as "Anne Harper" Jacklb555 (talk) 14:18, 18 August 2025 (UTC)— Relisting. Tenshi! (Talk page) 19:19, 25 August 2025 (UTC)

• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:09, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
• The claim that she reverted to her maiden name is sourced, accurately, and neither of the sources supplied in the nomination refute this claim or even mention Harper's divorce. The BBC states her birth name, the timeframe of the marriage, and refers to Harper as "Ms Scargill" throughout. The N.U.M. source neither looks particularly WP:RS or is detailed enough about her to be a measure for this discussion. The only source of the three being specific about her name post divorce states she reverted to her maiden name; the other two gloss over it. WP:NAMECHANGES (policy under WP:TITLE -> WP:COMMONNAME) pretty much just falls back to COMMONNAME; use the most common name for the subject in reliable sources, but, with the addition that we need to be sourcing the common name from sources published after the change. All three currently connected sources (the Telegraph in use, and the two put forth in the nomination) are post mortem, so rather final. One specifically states she changed/reverted her name, the other two simple say nothing about it and use her married name, with only one of those mentioning her marriage and being solidly RS. I feel that many more reliable sources, simply referring to her as Scargill, published after 2001 (the Telegraph states: "The couple separated in 1998 and after their divorce in 2001 she reverted to her maiden name.") would be needed to overshadow the Telegraph's very specific statement of a name reversion. If other RS published after 2001 were to state the opposite – that she kept her married name – then we'd have a more complex discussion. Though most people will likely remember her as Anne Scargill, which is a great reason for the redirect, it is what sources say that determines the article title and how treatment throughout the article should follow. Since the Telegraph has given us a specific statement that she reverted her name, in a specific year (shame there's no date), we must now, in respect of WP:NAMECHANGES, look for significantly weighty sources suggesting that her COMMONNAME remained Scargill after that year, and reflect the discrepancy ("Telegraph said... other sources said...") in the article prose should the article title be changed. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 15:51, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
• The Guardian obit. source also states, but less explicitly than the Telegraph, that she was known as Scargill until after their divorce in 2001. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 16:07, 25 August 2025 (UTC)

  A lot of sources from before her death list her name as Scargill, it only seems to be articles from her death / obituaries that list her name as Harper.

  After they seperated:

  August 1998: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/married-to-the-job-1172304.html

  After her divorce:

  March 2009: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160059/The-mad-sad-world-Scargill-pariah-How-25-years-led-miners-defeat-hes-convinced-beat-Thatcher.html - Lists her name as "Anne Scargill" and "Mrs Scargill"

  March 2013: https://inthesetimes.com/article/anne-scargill-women-against-pit-closures - Talks about her divorce with Arthur and lists her name as "Anne Scargill"

  April 2021: https://www.bigissuenorth.com/features/2021/04/a-wifes-work/#close - Lists her name as "Anne Scargill" in the image caption

  After her death:

  https://hellorayo.co.uk/hits-radio/south-yorkshire/news/barnsley-anne-scargill

  https://www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/politics/women-against-pit-closures-activist-anne-scargill-dies-5081344

  https://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/31670/anne-remembered-as-a-true-socialist - Says she was "better known as Anne Scargill", but lists her name as Harper

  There are also more sources in the article itself that lists her name as Scargill and not as Harper, including the BBC Sounds interview, the University of Reading article, and again, her own book. I think there are enough to meet WP:COMMONNAME as Scargill. Jacklb555 (talk) 11:06, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

  Just a quick note that the Daily Mail is regarded as not reliable: WP:DAILYMAIL. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 18:13, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

• Having given this a great deal of thought, I have come to the conclusion that either title is reasonably defensible in regard of policy.

  WP:NAMECHANGES requires us to evaluate COMMONNAME by referring to RSs published after the change, made clear by heavy-weight obits. as being after the divorce in 2001 (so 2002 onwards), but since she was relatively out of the public eye even before the divorce, there is not a significant weight of non-retrospective sources to refer to.

  Falling back to standard COMMONNAME practice results in "Anne Scargill" being the appropriate title, something she (or her publishers) seems to have recognised in 2020 – 19 years after reverting to Harper – when she joint-published a book under the name "Anne Scargill", clearly recognising that this was what she was commonly known as.

  The comparative lack of substantive sources covering her activities after the divorce, or even much after the 1980s without deference to that time and her then-name, makes NAMECHANGES unreasonable to account for. Yes she changed her name, but frankly, almost no one publicly noticed until she died.

  I think it's possible that some years from now, if her life is covered by more sources, that the recognition of her change of name post-divorce as highlighted by her obits may turn the tide such that her common name becomes Anne Harper. Part of the issue I see with how to apply NAMECHANGES in this case is that the audience has existed and still exists for "Anne Scargill", but that there perhaps may never be an audience for "Anne Harper" or that it may only be born of the highlighting of her change in name post-mortem.

  My personal preference would be to keep the title as "Anne Harper" out of respect for the absolute fact of her name being changed, now 24 years ago, but since following NAMECHANGES introduces some concerns regarding weight and balance, even I would argue that "Anne Scargill" is most reasonably common.

  As I said: I think either title is fine, and the MediaWiki software makes it so the two options are synonymous, so no one will be confused, confunded or frustrated during a search. I can see sound reason, in line with policy, why both titles can be considered appropriate, but NAMECHANGES just isn't definitive enough to flat-out rule this case. Anne Harper earned her place in the public memory and was predominantly referred to as "Anne Scargill" until her death, when obits made it very clear that she chose "Anne Harper" for herself, during a time when the world was paying her substantially less attention.

  My only concern regarding the move or not move, depending on the outcome, is ensuring that the lead is properly formatted to make absolutely clear that whilst she was known as "Anne Scargill", she changed her name after the divorce and died "Anne Harper". This matter should also be revisited in a few years, since more sources may be published after her death that respect her reversion to Harper. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 19:00, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.