Talk:Ahom kingdom

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Fortifications in forming boundaries

Are the eastern boundaries of medieval Assam marked by the fortifications? Here to see ComparingQuantities (talk) 06:25, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Native Name

@ChaipauWhy did you remove the native Name from infobox?? 2409:4065:CC7:982:0:0:628B:7E10 (talk) 12:33, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

It was known a Mong Dun Shun Kham only between 1228-1401. Read it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahom_kingdom#Mong_Dun_Shun_Kham_(1228%E2%80%931401) Chaipau (talk) 13:26, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chaipau@Chaipau First of all the term Native itself means At birth so Mong Dun Shun Kham is undoubtedly the name during the birth of the Kingdom. But even if you argue that Mong Dun Shun Kham was replaced by Assam we have clear record of using Mong Dun Shun Kham and Assam together in the Ahom Buranji page 375 of GC Baruah clearly using Mong Dun Shun Kham and Assam alternatively in 1810:-- "...In lakni Plekshan (i.e., in 1810 A.D.), one Mungklang, one Hingjepi- mung, one Hingkak, one Phake Phukan, and one our Shengphaduigām, Nara Katakis, arrived in MUNGDUNSHUNKHĀM (ASSAM). They brought with them two letters and..", also during Burmese Invasion they wrote a book Baishali Mong Dun Shun Kham refering Assam. We have lots of sources using both Mong Dun Shun Kham and Assam alternatively even towards the end of the Kingdom. So, stating Mong Dun Shun Kham was used only between 1228-1401 isn't correct at all. 2409:4065:CC7:982:0:0:628B:7E10 (talk) 13:54, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

It was probably used sporadically, but that was obviously not what they used natively. Buranjis themselves are not reliable sources for Wikipedia, since they are full of internal contradictions. And they are not true histories, just chronicles that served a particular purpose.

A better claim on the issue is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahom_kingdom#cite_note-rbphd-mdsk2assam-12.

Chaipau (talk) 14:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chaipau do you have any source stating Mong Dun Shun Kham was used sporadically?? However still it's the native name. Your point of removing Mong Dun Shun Kham from infobox doesn't make any sense. Regarding Reliability GC Barua is widely used in Wikipedia as a source and it's a published source so not an OR. I hope you'll trust the source instead of pushing your own Point of view. Buragohain 1988 stated it automatically disappeared after 14s, but we can still see the use of Mong Dun Shun Kham by Burmese and Ahom Scholars during 18s. So, we gotta follow the sources instead of dismissing a widely used source in Wikipedia. Removing Mong Dun Shun Kham for just one author's statement while we have whole records of uses doesn't make sense at all. While it's still the Native Name because it's named during the birth of the Kingdom. 2409:4065:CC7:982:0:0:628B:7E10 (talk) 14:33, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

The Borgohain source is good enough. Please look up the policies on WP:OR.

There is one other problem with the term mung. It specifies a specific state structures based on extended family-based ban or villages, and a number of bans forming a mung and the chaopha is the king who governed over one or many mungs. This is an old Tai political system.

It is clear that there were many such mungs before Sudangphaa, and Mung Dun Shun Kham was one of them. Sudangphaa removed the colonial relationship Mung Dun Shun Kham had with the Nara kingdom (Mogaung), suppressed the rebellions of other Mungs in the region, and introduced Vishnu into the Swargadeo's pantheon of gods, adopted the Hindu rituals of regal anointment (Singarigharutha). There was a definite break with the past in 1401---the Ahom kingdom was no longer a Mung.

Borgohain says it correctly, that the use of the Mung Dun Shun Kham decreased after 1401. Yes, Mung Dun Shun Kham was the native name for the polity before 1401, but definitely not after 1401.

I know this is the climate of Ahom revivalism. Best wishes, but Wikipedia cannot take part in its promotions.

Chaipau (talk) 15:14, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chaipau The meaning of Native Name means the name that was given at the formation which is Mong Dun Sun Kham. You can't argue that Maharashtra is a Rastra (Country) and not a Rajya (State) likewise you can't argue that because it's a Mueang it can't be the Native Name. instead of giving your unsourced thoughts about naming give proper source that stated Mong Dun Sun Kham isn't the Native Name. Revivalism has nothing to do with facts. Buragohain is clearly proved wrong telling it automatically disappeared and still we can see it in 18s. And again concept of Mong and Usage has nothing to do with the Mong Dun Sun Kham being the Native Name. If you can't provide a solid source that shows we have any other Native Name we have to trust the sources. Instead of diverting the topic please come to the point if not Mong Dun Sun Kham what's the native name? And why it's been used in the 18s if it's disappeared in 14s according to Buragohain? 2409:4065:CC7:982:0:0:628B:7E10 (talk) 15:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I have addressed all these issues above.

• Buranjis are WP:PRIMARY, full of contradictions. They cannot be used directly in Wikipedia. WP:SECONDARY (like Borgohain) are given more WP:WEIGHT.
• No second guessing WP:RS, in other words, no WP:OR. If there is a conflict in WP:RS, WP:DUE applies.
• The mung is a particular polity based on tribal alliances. Sudangphaa dismantled it after 1401.

Chaipau (talk) 16:06, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

we're talking about Native name not names after wards. And both the sources stated that Mueang Dun Sun Kham was the name initially which literally means it's the Native Name. Native Name means the name that's given during the formation. And you're just diverting the topic to later periods. We have tons of WP:RS stating that Mong Dun Sun kham was the early name or Native Name or Name given at Birth. And you removed it stating that later on the name Assam was adopted which literally makes no sense. We're talking about Native Name part of the Infobox not changing the Title. Let's native name be the native name. Why bring Assam or Ahom kingdom? While all sources agree that Siu-Ka-Pha established with name Mong Dun Sun Kham which is the native name. Later on whether we call it Assam , Kingdom of Assam or Ahom kingdom the Native name is Mong Dun Sun kham. There's no conflict with it. 2409:4065:CC7:982:0:0:628B:7E10 (talk) 16:24, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chaipau for example Manipur (princely state) page is using Meetei Leipak as Native Name and India is using Bhārat Gaṇarājya. While these were the Native names no one would argue there that these names were later adopted with newer names. Native Name means the name that's given at the formation. And all sources agree that. You're just complicating the matter giving names that are later adopted which are literally not Native Names. 2409:4065:CC7:982:0:0:628B:7E10 (talk) 16:44, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a better link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahom_kingdom#cite_note-rbphd-mdsk2assam-12

Firstly, "Mong Dun Sun Kham" seems like an epithet, a nickname since it means - "a country of golden gardens" and not the same as older official name of the administrative region, hence cannot be used in the native name parameter. Secondly, it seems like the name is of a smaller territory which later was a part of the much bigger kingdom, hence unwise to use it. We do not use the terms Videha as a 'native name' for the state of Bihar. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:47, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk I don't think that it's a smaller colony because the record shows Patkai hills being the boarder between Mong Dun Sun Kham and Mong kawng. Also, I will trust the sources that used the term Mong Dun Sun Kham for the bigger administrative regions even in the 19th century by both Burmese and Ahom Scholars. So, Mong Dun Sun Kham being a primitive colony isn't accurate at all ofcourse every kingdom grows from a smaller region. I think we all should maintain a neutral point of view and trust the multiple sources instead of just highlighting one single paragraph of one specific source that even proved wrong above by showing 19th century uses. 2409:4065:387:931D:0:0:B98:F8B1 (talk) 01:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

1400 vs. 1228

@Chaipau We know the Ahom kingdom was established in 1228 not 1400 so the native name is also Mong Dun Shun Kham. You're Cherrypicking from Buragohain 1988. Meanwhile, applying WP:DUE WEIGHT have to consider that most of the references consider Mong Dun Shun Kham as the Native Name. So please stop pushing your own POV because it's a Tai name. Some other sources:-

1. "...eulogizing the migration of Sukap and his men to Mung-dun-sun-kham (Assam)...."Fragmented Memories Struggling to be Tai-Ahom in India By Yasmin Saikia · 2004 , Page 187
2. "...established Mung Dun Sun Kham, nowadays called Assam (India), in 1228 A.D.." Abstracts: The International Conference on Tai Studies, July 29-31, 1998, Royal River, Bangkok 1998 Page 13
3. "...establishing a kingdom and landed in the fertile valley, which they named Mung-Dun-Sun-Kham (in Tai, Land of Golden Gardens)..." South Asia Politics Volume 6 2007 , Page 7
4. "...Sukapha and his men to Mung-dun- sun-kham (Assam)…" A Name Without a People Searching to be Tai-Ahom in Modern India, Volume 2 By Yasmin Saikia · 1999
5. "...foreign invaders called this land Mung-dun- sun -kham (-country-full-garden-gold) in their own tongue…" New Light on History of Asamīyā Literature from the Earliest Until Recent Times Including an Account of Its AAntecedents by Dimbeswar Neog · 1962 Page 24

47.29.169.120 (talk) 03:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but the Mung in Mong Dun Shun Kham stands for Mueang, a specific form of city-state type political formation, and it is not a name of an amorphous polity. Sukaphaa indeed established a mueang, and there were other independent political formations in the Brahmaputra valley over which he had some influence but he accepted the overall suzerainty of powers beyond the Brahmaputra valley. Mong Dun Shun Kham was not an entirely independent state formation. Sudangphaa centralized his rule over these other city states and removed the overlordship of Mong Kwang which was in Myanmar. So Mong Dun Shun Kham ended in around 1400.

None of the five references you cite above dispute what Buragohain (1988) and Guha (1983) cited in the article claims--- Sukaphaa's domain indeed started as a Mueang called Mong Dun Shun Kham. What Guha and Buragohain establishes is that after 1400 or Mong Dun Shun Kham was no longer a city-state---it was no longer a Mueang---and that it had become independent of Mong Kwang and adopted the name Assam instead. The name it had adopted, Assam, continued to be used till the end---1826. This article uses the modern name for that kingdom and covers both the periods.

Chaipau (talk) 14:17, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chaipau If Ahom kingdom was established in 1228 and by Siu-Ka-Pha than ofcourse the native name of Ahom Kingdom is also Mong Dun. Just removing the Tai name and letting the Establisher and Establishing Date is a Cherrypicking approach. If you wanna seperate the Mueang Dun from Ahom kingdom do it fully. But it's a POV push to remove the establishing name and letting the Establisher and Establishing date. Moreover most of the sources use Mong Dun and Ahom kingdom interchangeably so it's not a minority or WP:OR it has it's WP:DUE weight. And according to WP:DUE we have to mention both in case anything contradictory between reliable sources. Remember Native Name doesn't care about usage or replacement it's just the name given during the birth and the establishing date is clearly 1228 in most sources. We're talking about the establishment not the later expansion. 47.29.174.60 (talk) 18:04, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

You will have to establish with WP:RS that Mong Dun Shun Kham is used interchangeably with Ahom kingdom. The Ahom kingdom is a modern name. It was called Kingdom of Assam (or Acham) by contemporary accounts (Mughal, British, etc.). Native Buranjis too called it Assam. Chaipau (talk) 18:27, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chaipau again it doesn't matter whether it's used later or not a native name is the establishing name. Which is clearly Mong Dun Shun Kham no doubt regarding this. Kingdom of Assam and Ahom kingdom both aren't the Birthname. So how can we put them in the Native Name section?? 47.29.174.60 (talk) 18:50, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing in the Native Name element in the infobox. Chaipau (talk) 02:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chaipau That's why I was filling it. Now, you're talking nonsensical I hope you'll not remove Mong Dun Shun Kham again. Like you haven't remove 1228 and Siu-Ka-Pha. 47.29.174.60 (talk) 02:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Please do not add here without WP:CONSENSUS. The native name of the kingdom has been explicitly stated as "Assam", or "Axam", "Oxom", etc. in the Buranjis (Kamrupar Buranji - S K Bhuyan in Publisher's Note, in Assamese). This is not up for WP:OR. Chaipau (talk) 10:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chaipau Not a new fact, Buragohain 1988 already explained about Asom (Assam). It's a Later adoption and neither the Birth Name (according to dictionary) nor Native Language name (according to Wikipedia's Template:Infobox country). You're completely ignoring the dictionary and Wikipedia's definition of Native. Although we can add both Mong Dun Shun Kham (Ahom) Asom (Assamese) but still Asom is neither a Birth Name nor a Native Language name in Ahom language, and definitely not a replacement for Mong Dun. Sources given at the beginning agree that Mong Dun Sun Kham is the Birthname and Native Language Name.47.29.169.174 (talk) 05:17, 28 April 2024 (UTC)