Talk:1999 Tulsa County double murder

Name of the article

I discussed with the article's creator about renaming the article to John Fitzgerald Hanson or George John Hanson since he is the prominent party featured in the article and a vague reference to a Tulsa County double murder lacks sufficient prominence. Additionally, it is Hanson who is notable not his victims or his co-defendant so I proposed renaming the article to his name (whilst keeping content on victims and co-defendant in the article intact). We came to the agreement that before anything get's renamed other editors should have their due input hence I open this section. Dashing24 (talk) 08:07, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

@Dashing24. I set up the discussion now. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:40, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 10 April 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus It's possible a separate discussion focused solely on whether to move to murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman could come to a consensus, but there isn't really enough discussion of that issue to produce a consensus in this fractured discussion. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:19, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

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1999 Tulsa County double murder → George John Hanson – Based on discussions between me and Dashing24 , I set up this move discussion with hopes to reach a concensus and hear other editors' opinion on whether to move it to the proposed title or any other alternative title (eg. Murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman). NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:38, 10 April 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 16:38, 17 April 2025 (UTC) — Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:33, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Support. There's probably been countless double-murders in tulsa county in 1999. I vote change it to Murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman, because the article also talks about Hanson's accomplice, and would be more appropriate since naming the article George John Hanson would sound like a Batman-Robin scenario. ThisDuumbThingie316 (talk) 21:55, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

Comment I wonder if Execution of John Hanson might be a more appropriate page title (when/if it's carried out) as the primary notability comes from the fact the Biden administration refused to transfer him to the state for execution and the lengthy process that it's taken for the transfer/execution request to be carried out. I'm not sure the murders pass notability; it's just a carjacking. Tragically, there are many fatal carjackings that occur often in the United States. The notabiity comes from the lengthy legal battle that has occurred. Inexpiable (talk) 11:32, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

That's my point as well. Adding execution of John Hanson is also an appropriate option alongside John Fitzgerald Hanson or George John Hanson. Dashing24 (talk) 11:50, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Oppose (as proposed): This article is not a biography of Hanson, and he did not act alone, and he has no apparent notability other than this double murder. Another murderer is also discussed in the article as well, along with his appeals. See WP:PERPETRATOR and WP:SINGLEEVENT. "The general rule is to cover the event, not the person." No other specific instances of double murder in Tulsa County in 1999 have been identified that are discussed on Wikipedia, and that's a pretty specific combination that is unlikely to apply to other topics. The article is only about the murders and the aftermath, not about Hanson. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:00, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Comment: It is not clear to me whether the person who opened this RM discussion (NelsonLee20042020) is supporting the proposal or is just opening the discussion to resolve a conversation with Dashing24. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:54, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

@BarrelProof. My vote would have been support for the title: murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman, because after hearing the persuasive reasons to move it due to the possibility of more double murder cases in Tulsa County, which can give us a more specific title and enable the article to give substantial focus on both Miller and Hanson rather than Hanson himself, since both of their culpabilities were quite considerably large, despite the larger role Hanson had compared to Miller. However, @Inexpiable and @Dashing24 are also valid in their points to put focus on Hanson given the unusual circumstances of his upcoming execution, centering around the dispute between Oklahoma and federal authorities regarding the extradition of Hanson back to Oklahoma to be executed and how it was made possible once Trump succeeded Biden as the president. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 00:48, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

@BarrelProof. On top of that, I find it a complex issue that cannot be decided between two users alone in my talk page so I believe it should be discussed among a bigger group and hear what the other users have to say before making a final decision. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 00:49, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

Oppose original proposal per BarrelProof. Weak oppose "Murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman". Online sources seem to be somewhat evenly split between the current title and this proposal, and while I don't think it violates policy in any way, I also don't see such a move being necessary. Oppose "Execution of John Hanson". Looking at online sources, I'm unconvinced that the notability chiefly comes from the legal wrangling regarding Hanson's execution. Sure, if you search for George John Hanson, most sources that come up are regarding his execution, but if you use more general search strings like "1999 Tulsa County double murder" or "Murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman" (the current and one of the proposed titles), sources appear more mixed once you get over WP:RECENTISM and look a bit further. Also, the article would need to be substantially rewritten if we choose this title, as similar articles like Execution of John Grant give much more weight to execution-related matters that this article currently does (which also seems to be weak indication that the notability of this article doesn't stem chiefly from the execution process). Liu1126 (talk) 23:07, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Relisting comment - currently I can't see any consensus for any action at all, support is pretty evenly divided between four possible options including the status quo, there isn't support for moving to the subject's name in particular. Giving one more relist in case a further consensus can emerge.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:33, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

• Support It definitely seem George John Hanson is most notable here in the page especially if he gets executed in the end,transfer saga definitely could add a bit of more notability there as well personally.Him having accomplice doesnt really make problem of moving page because Miller is serving LWOP and is less notable then John and John have federal case as well.DarkHorseMayhem (talk) 01:48, 27 April 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose as not only would we need to fundamentally rewrite the entire article, with the lead in focus of the new article name, but multiple people were convicted in the murders. HarukaAmaranth 12:09, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

  This is same situation as Lisa Jo Chamberlin she killed two people with her boyfriend and they are both sentenced to death but she is only one who got page partially due to her still having death penalty unlike her boyfriend. DarkHorseMayhem (talk) 20:48, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

  There has never been a Wikipedia RM discussion of the title of that article. It simply has the title it was given by its original author less than three months ago, and it has basically not been edited by anyone else since then. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:04, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

  Its still same situation DarkHorseMayhem (talk) 22:14, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

  It's just what is known as WP:OTHERSTUFF. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:03, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose as the murders were committed by multiple people. WP:CRIME advises that "A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person." As far as I can tell, the only reason that Hanson is notable is because of these murders. If the article were moved to solely being about Hanson then it would probably become a pseudo-biography because there does not appear to be enough other material to provide a full and balanced biography of Hanson's life. Also, what happens with the rest of the story about the two murder victims or the other perpetrator? Hanson is really only notable together with the others and is in a similar position to a person notable for a single event. Hanson's subsequent trial and scheduled execution is a consequence of the double murder and is an integral part of the whole story, and the component parts cannot be easily divided. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:48, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

  @Cameron Dewe. I proposed an alternative title called: Murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman, so as to be more specific because like @Dashing24 pointed out, it is not specific enough and there could be more double murder cases happening in the same county itself. I thought of boldly moving it to the alternate title but believe we should have a discussion to resolve the issue. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 01:16, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

  @NelsonLee20042020: I think the current title, 1999 Tulsa County double murder, is probably more concise than the title "Murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman". The existing title does follow the naming conventions for events, so I think deciding the best title hinges on the criteria for deciding article titles. In this case, the commonly recognizable name that appears in headlines primarily talks about a double murder in Tulsa County, and does not refer to the individual victims by their names. Murders are relatively rare events, double murders of unrelated people are much rarer. I think the suggestion that there are "countless" double murders in Tulsa County is an excuse or guess by an editor who has not checked the statistics. In my opinion, the circumstances of this double murder are notable, and if there had been a second double murder Tulsa County in 1999 it would be commented on in at least one of the articles. The fact it isn't suggests there has just been one, to the existing title is precise enough, and consistent with the way some other crimes are named that involve unrelated people. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 03:37, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

  @Cameron Dewe, @NelsonLee20042020 This article: from Tulsa World shows that as of July 20, 1999, 32 homicides had occurred in Tulsa County alone. The article also mentions "two people were killed" on that exact date. The current title is too vague and as such should be renamed murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman. See my comment and rationale below for more. Inexpiable (talk) 13:08, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

• Support Move to murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman. I'm genuinely surprised at all the opposes, this is such a vague title name and not consistent with article naming or any other article title across Wikipedia that is related to crime/murder. Scroll through the subcategories under Category:Murders in the United States by year and you will see no other articles are titled like this. I'm sure there was more than one "double murder" in the year 1999 in Tulsa County. See, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths) and Wikipedia:"Murder of" articles. To me, it should be renamed to murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths). Inexpiable (talk) 12:56, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

  Comment, @Inexpiable, I would affirm my support to move to this title murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman like I previously mentioned (as an alternative title I proposed in case the one I suggested as the primary choice is not accepted). As a brief recap, I have my concern on equalizing the focus on the accomplice on Hanson, considering that he did not play a small role in the murders Hanson was convicted for, and he also had a lengthy appeal process despite the degree of attention that paled in comparison to the individual but related coverage of Hanson's court appearances and developments of his case. As a result, I thought of moving it to murders of Mary Bowles and Jerald Thurman, which might be easier without having to rewrite the article and place the main focus on Hanson when it would inevitably reduce the attention on the accomplice. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 14:15, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Other crimes

This article had mentioned a federal conviction for Hanson as the reason he was in federal custody. I assumed the federal charges were related to the same double murder incident. I noticed a mention of the federal conviction being for bank robbery, and I was wondering why robbing and killing a retired banker (Mary Bowles) would be considered bank robbery. It turns out that both Miller and Hanson were indicted for a credit union robbery that took place on September 8, 1999, just a week after the murders. I only later found a mention of this in the article as the reason they were arrested. (I had searched the article for "bank" but the sentence mentioning that robbery used "credit union" instead of "bank".) Was Miller convicted for that too? (Only Hanson's conviction for that is mentioned.) Were they convicted of other things too? (The Wikipedia article mentions "several unrelated cases committed before and after the murders" in addition to the credit union robbery, but I didn't find anything to support that in the cited source.) The Wikipedia article should provide more information about this bank robbery and associated trial(s) and conviction(s), and any other things that are relevant to understanding the background of the subject. The bank robbery is highly relevant here because it is what got them arrested and it is why Hanson was in a federal prison in Louisiana when Oklahoma wanted to execute him. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:42, 18 April 2025 (UTC)