Template talk:Use English variant

Aliases

Hi Szmenderowiecki, may I make a suggestion? I think it would be preferable to do away with the aliases. The system at the moment is pretty uniform and we've come a long way towards tidying it up. There is only one way to indicate 'Use Australian English' for example. Whereas I wouldn't necessarily know what '|English variant=au' or |English variant=bre or |English variant=pk were. No doubt other global users would be unaware of some other informal terms like 'aussie' and 'kiwi'. And it sets a precedent that users will want to add their own nicknames for different nations rather than languages e.g. 'limey' or 'canuck' or some such. Also, the aliases for British English are not in fact aliases. England English, for example, is not a thing.

For myself, sadly, if this went to TfD as it is, I would oppose it on the grounds that it would introduce a degree of chaotic terminology where, at present, there is none. Dgp4004 (talk) 20:38, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

Piggybacking on this constructive suggestion, I suggest that |English variant= is an inconvenient name for a parameter. It's not easy to type. I usually do not recommend unnamed parameters, but using |1= instead probably makes more sense in this template. Like this: {Use English variant|Australian|date=January 2026}. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:03, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

Agreed Dgp4004 (talk) 21:51, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

With no aliases, what's the point of switching from simple and hardly ever to change templates like {{Use American English}} to this monster template that does nothing better then them? I'm not saying the cryptic aliases should be used (they should not!), I'm saying this whole switch is unnecessary. Ponor (talk) 02:18, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

@Dgp4004, Jonesey95, and Ponor: I changed this to just two possible values: the "natural" value, e.g. american for American English, and the corresponding IETF language codes. Suggested values are the "natural" ones. The parameter was shortened to variant The feedback I got was from VPI which by and large endorsed the idea.

Whereas I wouldn't necessarily know what English variant au... These as far as I'm aware are mostly the same as ccTLDs, so e.g. abs.gov.au in this URL address means that it's a government institution based in Australia (in this case, it's the Australian Bureau of Statistics). In 2026 I think it's fair to assume that people know what URL addresses more or less look like, and if they see an unfamiliar ending, they will just look it up.

Ponor, the list of aliases is not the point, the point is one master template. {{Langx}} wasn't really any better than any of the lang-?? and yet we made the transition. Oh, and yes, it uses short IETF language codes, so uk is not United Kingdom but Ukrainian. And it works great and I didn't hear about much confusion! Szmenderowiecki (talk · contribs) 03:02, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

There are many more languages in the world (hundreds to thousands) than there are variants of the English language, and the lang-?? templates do a lot more than adding categories, i.e. they have user-facing output that makes sense having under one umbrella template for consistency. {{Use Hiberno-English}} on top of an article is a clear message to anyone editing the article. {{Use English variant|variant=hk}} (hk what?) adds complexity to that message. It's also unclear how this template will handle input errors; adding that will make it even more complex. Since {{Use X English}} are so simple and highly unlikely to ever change, I wonder how this "we'll do everything so things stay the same" makes any sense. Ponor (talk) 03:47, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

hk what? you can think of any other country/autonomous division could be hk? Hong Kong is not exactly Podunk. If you do not type the template manually but use the Mediawiki software to enter the template name, you have suggested values that are as clear as they can be. The idea is that if you really want to type {{Use British English}} manually, the bot will deal with it and convert it to {{Use English variant|variant=british}}. In Visual Editor, {{Use British English}} will direct you to choose {{Use English variant}}.

The general problem is that there are like 15 of them, then there's the {{Use X English}}, the {{English variant templates}} and potentially many more may be created, e.g. Bangladesh, Malta... Any additional variant may be coded by anyone at any time but little does the coding editor know they are probably going to be dragged to TfD because "unnecessary English variety, we already have enough of them". This is going to be a signal that there's one place to do it.

There's also inconsistency between protection: some are extended-protected ({{Use Ghanaian English}}) or even semi-protected ({{Use Ugandan English}}) and some are template-protected. Moreover, going by your argument we should have still had a big table with lang-?? templates because "it's so simple and highly unlikely to change" - just look up the language.

adds complexity to that message So five words instead of three? I mean, if that's an issue for you, OK, but I don't see your point.

It's also unclear how this template will handle input errors to be fair, none of the templates at {{Use X English}} has error handling, even though you could write stupid stuff in the date parameter. You are free to improve the template, and if you see a problem to fix, fix it - who am I to stop you?

adding that will make it even more complex so all the templates with Lua modules aren't complex, right? I mean, sure, the Mediawiki code looks neat but that's only because you outsourced all of it to the Lua module.

Anyway, I'm not here to convince you, you can argue at TfD about this. I submitted the request for modifying templates, it's not a frivolous request and so we ought to discuss it. Szmenderowiecki (talk · contribs) 04:55, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

@Dgp4004, Jonesey95, and Ponor:, you are aware of this discussion, so I ping you to notify about the TfD I opened. I asked to wait a day but Jonesey95 implemented my template-protected edit request at Template talk:Use American English anyway, which forced me to open a thread at TfD to avoid weird questions about no TfD discussion but a TfD notice. Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2026_January_13#Use American English Szmenderowiecki (talk · contribs) 07:17, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. If you wanted a delay, deactivating the edit request would have been helpful. Anyway, you're into it now. I think the first TFD responder's idea of replacing the existing templates with wrappers is a good one; it would allow people to see and use the existing template names that they are comfortable with while having a back end that they don't need to care about. It would also discourage the creation of new Use X English templates, though nothing can prevent that entirely. I encourage you to be flexible about possible TFD outcomes and to consider the TFD the first (or second, or third) chapter in a journey that eventually results in this template being implemented. I have been working to make this family of templates sane for many years, with many setbacks and a few recent instances of progress. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:55, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Thank you. Just to let you know that the notice is not appearing on some of the template pages: see Template:Use Hong Kong English. In fact, I think it's only showing correctly on Template:Use American English. Dgp4004 (talk) 18:00, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Actually, even the US notice is not working properly I'm afraid. A little notice is supposed to appear automatically at the top of each page that uses the template such as United States. But there's nothing there. I don't know how to fix it I'm afraid as I've only ever used Twinkle to start a TfD.

But perhaps that element is best left unfixed otherwise the notice will appear on hundreds of thousands of articles! Dgp4004 (talk) 18:06, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

"Suggested values are the "natural" ones." No, the natural ones are "British", "Indian" etc: does your software accept these natural, capitalised, versions as well as "british" and "indian"? PamD 08:17, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

PamD It does, because any input is automatically lowercased. In {{lc:{{{variant|}}}}}, lc: makes your input "British" be interpreted as 'british' Szmenderowiecki (talk · contribs) 08:26, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

How will it be displayed in the code seen by future editors? "indian" just looks wrong and disrespectful. PamD 08:32, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

I'm not sure if values of parameters are case-sensitive, but it's easier to make all values lowercase and expect all kinds of capitalisation (ALLCAPS, First Capital Letter Only or lowercase, or maybe some ToTAlly wEIrD VariaTIOn)

As for how the template will be seen, it depends. If you edit in source code, you will see the code. In Visual Editor, it will be seen as "Use English variant"; you will have to click inside to see the parameter (alternatively, as my big plan is, go to the talk page and see the appropriate talk page banner)

If you are asking about perceptions of how the value looks, well, I personally don't think we should bother about it that much when it's in code. It's not like we write stuff facing readers with lower-case "indian". It's an editor-facing template. Szmenderowiecki (talk · contribs) 09:40, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

I don't use Visual Editor, but the idea that an editor will have to click on the template to discover which variant to use seems a really bad idea - though I don't know how it compares to what the editor sees today if they are editing an article with {{Use Indian English}}. PamD 14:17, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

I agree with this. I love the visual editor and use it as much as I can. When there's an English variety template like "Use American English" I can easily see what English variety is used, but the thought that I'd have to click on the "Use English variant" template to see what English variety is used bothers me.

If we set aside the inconsistency concern mentioned by Dgp4004 above, I can see how the Use English variant template might be useful, but I also don't see the problem with the "Use X English" templates that we've got now. A large majority of my edits are adding the "Use American English" and other variety templates to articles in accordance with MOS:TIES and I personally haven't had any issues with the current system, but I'm sure there are issues that I'm not considering. ―Panamitsu (talk) 22:07, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

C'est magnifique

To editor Szmenderowiecki: this looks awesome, great work imo! Looks like it might overlap a bit/quite a bit w/ {{English ties}}. Will go through the talks that led to these tmps and will be back in a bit/later on to give a comparison/contrast :) To editors Beland, Fayenatic london and Szmenderowiecki: Ok so it looks like there's only a bit of overlap b/w {{ties}} and {{use Engvar}} rn, though ifl they're trying to do sorta similar things? use Engvar was meant to subsume all Use X Engl. That flopped in TfD (</3), but template might still be able to preclude more Use X Engl templates from popping up? Except that imo feature 7 (in #Features) is precluding that, as imo the main reason editors make those templates is because their can't find an equivalent template for their English dialect (despite ENGVAR saying their dialect is acceptable). ties ofc has feature 7, but is missing feature 5. How about we (soft proposal):
* Merge both templates to get both features 5 and 7
* Add feature 9 or 13 or both
* For all English dialects (X Engl) w/c meet ENGVAR, point all Tm:Use X Engl and Tm:X Engl titles to the merged template
I think this meets most of what everyone would like here? and sorry for double pings! - Asdfjrjjj (talk) 04:44, 23 June 2026 (UTC); updated w/ table at 08:02, 23 June 2026 (UTC)

To editor Jonesey95: you recently reverted the redirects to {{ties}} in {{Use X English}} and {{English variant templates}} (diffs here and here, respectively). Those rdr were meant to aid in discoverability of ties, and seem like appropriate additions the latter templates imo. It looks like we might disagree on that point, st you might object to the above plan (esp third bullet point of insert)? - Asdfjrjjj (talk) 15:36, 24 June 2026 (UTC) Asdfjrjjj (talk) 15:36, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

Many "Use XXX English" templates have been deleted because they provide no useful guidance to editors. Inserting those varieties of English into a general-use template does not change that fact. There is no need to re-open this "Use XXX English" can of worms now that the lid has been firmly resealed. To give a specific example: Belizean English says: In 2013, it was noted that spelling in official contexts, such as in government, tended to follow British conventions, while that in commercial spaces tended to prefer American usage, with spelling in popular written media described as "highly inconsistent, following the conventions of the writer". If the cited source is to be believed, that means that any template purporting to guide editors about how to spell specific words in Belizean English is hopeless. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:22, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

To editor Jonesey95: hmmm ok I think we're agreed that we don't want any new Use X Engl nor X Engl templates made, but the bulleted plan above (and the links added to Use X Engl and Engl variant templates templates/finding aids) concern redirects, not templates! Would you have any non-template/non-linguistics related objection to having these Use X Engl and X Engl redirects listed in the mentioned finding aids, or maybe even to their creation in the first place..? - Asdfjrjjj (talk) 19:04, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

I am not agreed to "no new Use XXX English templates". There may be useful ones yet to be created. I object specifically to the creation of such templates or redirects that do not provide useful guidance to editors. If a "Use XXX English" template or redirect is created, it needs to be connected to a "XXX English" article that provides specific guidance about spelling and word choice that also conforms with MOS:COMMONALITY. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:37, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

To editor Jonesey95: ahhh ok so the objection is to the redirects as well. I can add the requested guidance to the Belizean English and Caribbean English articles, in which case I'll then re-add the redirects to the finding aid templates (ie revert your reversion), if that's ok?

Ps small point of info: {{ties}} does not provide guidance a la use X Engl for lesser known Engl dialects (like en-BZ, CarE). Rather, the guidance (for these) is currently: use standard formal written English as used in this country, which for encyclopedia purposes is very similar to British English. Ifl that's enough spelling/word choice guidance for most editors really, in which case redirects to {{ties}} seemingly already meet your guidance requirement .. no? - Asdfjrjjj (talk) 21:14, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

Re Belizean English and requested guidance: Given that a reasonable-looking source says that there is no standard for Belizean English spelling, I don't see how that would be possible. I'll be interested to see what you can come up with.

And re the quotation about "very similar to British English", that's what {{Use British English}} is for. The guidance you quoted is less helpful than the Use British English template, it is incorrect according to the source quoted above, and there is no way for editors to know what "very similar" means, specifically. That guidance is misleading and should be changed or removed unless reliable sources are found to support it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:04, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

Completely agree with Jonesey95. Those templates were deleted for a reason and by recent consensus. The consensus was to delete, not to convert into a redirect. This is simply an attempt to resurrect a dead template. Nobody is typing 'template:Use Carribbean English', into the search bar, and certainly not the even more obscure creations like 'Template:UCarE'. What is their purpose? It's just spam. Dgp4004 (talk) 22:11, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

To editor Dgp4004: Ehh I looked for both of those when I figured out MOS did not require me to write in BrE :). The rdrs (and their inclusion in the finding aid templates) were an attempt to have those templates not be recreated, as they point editors to a template that already subsumes those functions, {{ties}}!

To editor Jonesey95: veeeery hard oppose to use of {{UBE}} (and ifl I speak for most West Indian/Commonwealth editors on this point tbqh). And current {{ties}} guidance seems correct to me for en-BZ, given it forms part of CarE, but in any case point taken, will not re-add the redirects to the finding aid templates until the requested articles have spelling/word choice guidance (later/soonish :) Oooor actually I'm mostly just interested in sorting pages into tracking cats, which is all {{ties}} does if we don't add it to the talkpage. Would either of you object to my (right now) adding only the Tm:Use X Engl rdrs to the finding aid templates (as these display no notices), and not the Tm:X Engl rdrs until the relevant guidance is added to en-BZ and CarE .. ? Does that sound ok.. ?- Asdfjrjjj (talk) 22:33, 24 June 2026 (UTC); updated 22:53, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

I feel like you are not listening. Yes, we both object to adding the new redirects to any page, because they fail to provide valid guidance to editors. Templates that serve no valid editing-related or reader-helpful purpose should not be used in articles. Sorting articles into tracking categories that also provide no useful guidance to editors is also something that I view as disruptive. Please do not do it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:47, 25 June 2026 (UTC)

Features

Feature	eng ties	u engvar	u x eng	x eng
Made after recent discussion?	Yes	Yes	No	No
Displays talkpage notice to human editors?	Yes	No	No	Yes
Displays editnotice to human editors?	No	?	No	Yes
For use in TIES articles?	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
For use in RETAIN articles?	No	Yes	Yes	Yes
May be transcluded via redirects or shortcuts?	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
Supports all dialects which meet ENGVAR?	Yes	No	No	No
May support all dialects which meet ENGVAR?	Yes	Yes	No	No
Sorts articles to All Wikipedia articles written in X English categories?	No	?	Yes	No
Sorts articles to Use X English from Mmmm yyyy categories?	No	?	Yes	No
Sorts articles to Wikipedia articles with strong ties to X categories?	Yes	No	No	No
Sorts talkpages to Wikipedia articles with strong ties to X categories?	Yes	No	No	No
Sorts talkpages to Wikipedia articles that use X English categories?	No	?	No	Yes

References