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July 24

Questions

1. Are there any words in Spanish where a diaeresis is used to break diphthongs?
2. Does the French word créée have ”three Es” or ”two És and one E”? In other words, when counting how many times each letter appears in a word in French, are accented letters counted separately from their unaccented counterparts, or not?
3. Are there any words in French with letter Á (not À)?
4. How are the letters in pinyin read out loud? Do pinyin letters have names like English ”a, bee, cee”? How is ”Zhongguo” read, ”Z-H-O-N-G-G-U-O”?
5. Are varieties of Arabic such as Egyptian, Iraqi, Algerian and Moroccan Arabic, their own languages since they, at least the most distant ones, are not mutually intelligible?
6. Is 23:59 on Thursday ”one to twelve on Thursday evening”, 0:00 on Friday ”twelve on Friday night” and 0:01 on Friday ”one past twelve on Friday night”?
7. Can the word ended be used an adjective like ”The team scored 50 goals in the ended season”, ”The ended year was quite normal”?
8. Is English Saint ever abbreviated as S:t, like Swedish Sankt is?
9. Can the word water be used as a countable noun when referring to a single container filled with water, like Bring three waters and two teas to this room?
10. Can the word kettle be used to refer to Finnish kattila, to which kettle is related with borrowing of the Finnish term from Germanic?

--40bus (talk) 07:42, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

6. No, 0:01 in Friday is still Thursday night.

7. No. You could say "the season just ended".

8. No, never.

9. Yes, this usage is possible in a restaurant context.

--~2026-41082-90 (talk) 08:08, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

1. See Diaeresis_(diacritic)#Spanish.

7. No, it would be like the above user said.

8. not that I've ever seen. It's typically just "St", with or without a trailing "." In older times, it was "S" plus a smaller superscript "t" that was underscored.

9. Sure. It's not really using water as a countable noun, though; it's a shorthand way of saying "glasses of water" (and "cups of tea").

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:08, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

6. "a minute before midnight on Thursday"; "midnight on Thursday"; "a minute after midnight on Thursday" or "...Friday morning"

7. "end of season", "end of year"

8. No

9. Yes, although "glasses of water" would be more usual. Bazza 7 (talk) 09:03, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

7. "When you went onward on this ended action, I look'd upon her with a soldier's eye" (Much Ado About Nothing, Act 1, scene i), but I would say that that sense of ended is archaic now, at a pinch maybe possible in poetry. In a different sense you can talk about double-ended screws and the like. --Antiquary (talk) 10:56, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

3. A quick search on French Wikipedia and Wiktionary yields nothing but proper names. Given the existing prevalence of à as well as the prescriptive orthography assigned by the Académie Française, I find it unlikely that any words will use it anytime soon.

5. Varieties of Arabic is relevant here.

GalacticShoe (talk) 13:23, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

2. In French, e, é, è and ê are considered to be just one letter. So créée has three e's. When spelling the word out loud, one would say cé, erre, e accent aigu, e accent aigu, e. In dictionaries, words with accented letters are ordered as if the accents did not exist. Xuxl (talk) 13:30, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

10. According to Wiktionary, Finnish kattila has a large number of meanings. It seems that at least the geological sense, as in kettle hole is common to both languages. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:25, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

4. I wouldn't think that in Chinese, Latin letters used in Pinyin would be considered fundamentally different to Latin letters used in other contexts. Then, it seems as if every article on Latin letters in Chinese Wikipedia lists a Pinyin pronunciation by the heading 汉语拼音发音 . 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:34, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

4. Latin letters in Pinyin not infrequently represent different sounds in (Modern Standard) Mandarin than they do in English and similar 'Western' languages. This is because

(a) Some 'Western' sounds are not present in Mandarin;

(b) Some sounds present in Mandarin do not exist in English, etc., and consequently;

(c) Pinyin has deployed some 'unused' Latin letters to represent those non-Western sounds. See the tables under Pinyin#Syllables, which show how those letters are pronounced in MSM.

This is because, while previous 'romanization schemes' were mostly designed by Western scholars to represent the sounds of Chinese (or rather, the many Chinese languages – note the obsolete term 'dialects' used in this context is misleading) to Westerners, Pinyin was designed by Chinese linguists primarily for use by Chinese people where using Chinese characters was inconvenient, particularly for tasks involving keyboards.

As I understood the question, 40bus asked about the names of the general letters in Pinyin, and I don't really think they would have any specific. A question like "How do you spell 'Zhong Guo' in Pinyin?" would probably not get a response with different names than "How do you spell 'walkthrough' in English?" 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:37, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

The question about "what are the letters called" is simple to answer. They are normal letters. They don't have special names. So, "zh" is "zee aich" (or however you want to spell the letter names). I feel there is confusion about the use of pinyin. It isn't used for writing in China. It is used for non-native speakers to learn to pronounce Mandarin words. That is why the example shown in the question "zhongguo" is not actually pinyin. It should be zhong1guo2 or zhōngguó. Without the tone markers, you don't know how to pronounce the words. If you pronounce it with the wrong tones, you spout nonsense like zhong3guo1 (seed pot), zhong2guo4 (time-traveling clock), or zhong4guo3 (heavy fruit). ~2026-38520-51 (talk) 11:32, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

I don't know how common it is, but apparently Chinese speakers might use Pinyin(-ish) when they're unsure of how to write the character correctly. It might not really be proper use, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:41, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

The way character input works is you type the main radical and then branch out from there. They don't type what it sounds like in the same way as pinyin works. There are longstanding complaints that the ease of typing radical and picking strokes with autocomplete has made many young generations that can long longer write Chinese without a computer. ~2026-39968-68 (talk) 15:21, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

How are individual words written in Chinese characters spelled out in Chinese, in a context where the hearer does not know the spelling of the word beforehand? And in Pinyin? --40bus (talk) 19:54, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

There is the Bopomofo system, at least. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:17, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

Chinese isn't an alphabetic language, so there is literally no concept of "spelling out" a word with letters. Pinyin is just a phonetic tool invented in the 1950s—mainly used for children learning pronunciation, foreign learners, and typing on digital keyboards.

If a Chinese speaker hears a word they don't know or wants to clarify which word they mean, they don't spell it letter-by-letter. They describe the character visually.

For example, they might say: "It’s the character with the 'wood' radical on the left and the 'sun' character on the right." If they're talking in person, they will often literally trace the strokes with a finger on their palm.

Relying on Pinyin to "spell out" a word to another Chinese speaker actually creates more confusion, because Chinese has dozens of completely different characters that share the exact same Pinyin spelling. The character is the word. ~2026-41824-87 (talk) 14:54, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

9. Usually not, in normal writing or conversation, it would be "three bottles of water" (or whatever); however, in very specific circumstances where the exact nature of the water vessels is known – such as two waiters talking to each other – just "waters" might be used. It could be used in other situations: "The waters of the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic oceans [or, of the Holy wells in Cerne Abbas, Glastonbury, and Mottisfont] differ in character. These three waters . . . ." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 17:08, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

7. As far as I’m aware as a native English speaker, there are literally no words you can use in this way to mark the passage of time. English is not Finnish. ‘The ended year was normal,’ ‘the finished year was normal,’ ‘the started project was going well,’ are all not grammatically correct in English. You could perhaps do this in other contexts, such as ‘the cat climbed the painted building,’ which sounds perfectly normal (if a bit oddly specific, but if there happened to be only one painted building, that wouldn’t sound weird) but that’s not an adjective that marks the passage of time like many of your questions to this end seem to be about. That’s just not how English works. Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 02:29, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

An amendment to my statement: I say ‘not grammatically correct.’ I don’t know if that’s true, since it may be technically grammatically correct in some very specific cases; however, even then, it would probably still sound very weird and unnatural. Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 02:33, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

They're not "grammatically" incorrect, but I would say they are "idiomatically" incorrect. For someone saying those things, it would be a dead giveaway that they are not a native English speaker. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:24, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

That’s sort of what I meant by my amendment; it can be grammatically correct, but it’s not a thing anyone ever says. Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 04:13, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

10. I suspect that the pan seen in this image, referred to as a "soup kettle", might be called a kattila.

If a stew recipe were to direct one to put ingredients in a kettle and cook them over moderate heat while stirring, I might use a pan that Fins would call a kattila if that is what happens to be available, but given a choice I'd use a hollantilainen uuni (Dutch oven).  ​‑‑Lambiam 11:43, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

July 26

//Ani (language) and ||Ani (dialect) - and clicks

See Glottolog.

It's clear that there are two entities on Glottolog, Spoken L1 Language //Ani (IS0 369) hnh anii1246 and anii1247 Dialect: ||Ani a dialect of Spoken L1 Language: Kxoe kxoe1243 (ISO 369) xuu. What is not clear is which click belongs to which, because Glottolog does not explain these.

|| may be standing in for ǁ, which is Unicode: LATIN LETTER LATERAL CLICK U+01C1 (in Latin Extended-B). However while there is (for //) ⫽ DOUBLE SOLIDUS OPERATOR (U+2AFD) I can't find that this as a click (nor do I think it is the diaphoneme marker in IPA, which may reuse U+2AFD). There is also COMBINING LONG DOUBLE SOLIDUS OVERLAY U+20EB. It's possible that // represents LATIN LETTER ALVEOLAR CLICK (U+01C2).

Note that the Glottlog pages can be even more confusing as they also use italics, making || look like || and // look like //.

1. Do these distinct entities exist?
2. If so what are the clicks?
3. What is the correct IPA/Unicode way to represent them?

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 18:47, 26 July 2026 (UTC).

AFAIK // is just an ASCII substitute for ǁ, which can be slanted in handwriting or italicized in print (common for transcriptions). See Click letter. Nardog (talk) 20:12, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

Thanks! All the best: Rich Farmbrough 07:16, 27 July 2026 (UTC).

Pinging User:Kwamikagami who is knowledgeable abut these things. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 07:16, 27 July 2026 (UTC).

Yes, || and // are just keyboard hacks for ǁ.

The dialects in Glottolog were adopted wholesale from Multitree, which was an undergrad student project and not a RS. I've seen some progress in making the dialect lists more robust, but it's slow-going. I'd ignore dialect stuff on glotto unless it supplies a source to confirm it. — kwami (talk) 19:26, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

At all

My understanding is that "at all" is used with either plural countable things, or uncountable things: "Would you like any extra towels at all?" "I don't need any water at all".

It could be applied to a singular countable thing that has many aspects to it, or where there's a spectrum of possible attitudes: "I know a lot of people rave about it, but I didn't like The Odyssey at all".

But where it definitely doesn't apply is to a singular countable thing where it's a Yes or No, black or white, binary option. If I buy something at a shop counter, I may be asked whether I'd like a receipt. "Would you like a receipt?" would be the way to phrase that question. But what I hear more and more often is "Would you like a receipt at all?". It's not as if I might be favourably disposed to taking a receipt but not so far as a definite Yes.

Is this just an Australian thing or does it appear elsewhere? And what are the questioners on about? Is it supposed to be a politeness thing, and if so, how do these words add politeness?

Am I overthinking this, at all? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:48, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

@JackofOz: It seems to be for emphasis rather than politeness.

• Collins and Cambridge say it's used for emphasis at the end of negative statements, and questions.
• Longmans agrees.
• MW similarly equates it to "in any way or respect", "to the least extent or degree", "under any circumstances"; and helpfully dates it to the 15th century.
• Oxford, as usual, is elusive.

Bazza 7 (talk) 22:49, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

What is being emphasised in the "would you like a receipt" scenario? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:40, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

It is your liking that is being questioned. The speaker seeks confirmation of their growing suspicion that you are one of those who do not like to receive receipts.  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:34, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

On what possible basis could such a suspicion arise? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:58, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

The look you give while glaring at them from below your eyebrows. Or the observation that most customers don't care about receipts, and why should they – or you.  ​‑‑Lambiam 17:57, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

We seem to inhabit rather different worlds, Lambiam. That's OK. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:58, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:32, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

If you are lucky enough to be able to submit expenses either to the firm you work for, or for yourself, receipts are indeed very important. I haven't used a black London taxi for many years, but it used to be the case that if you chatted nicely with the driver and asked for a receipt at the end, they would give you a whole handful of blanks to fill out at your leisure. Ah, the joys of creative accounting. MinorProphet (talk) 21:55, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

This expression is common in the UK as well.

Regarding the receipt scenario: here vendors have a legal obligation to provide a receipt if wanted, but of course the purchaser is not obliged to take it. Tills used to print receipts automatically (so consequently unwanted ones were thrown away) but now the till or equivalent will only do so if prompted, so most vendors ask the question, and the answer is not predictable, hence " . . . at all?" is perhaps a signal of the vendor's uncertainty.

(Some vendors, especially volunteers in charity ('thrift') shops neither offer a receipt nor ask if one is wanted, and occasionally when I ask for one (as is my habit) they prove unable to provide one because they have operated the till incorrectly. [/rant]) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 04:32, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

I remember when the Poundland self-service ones use to always print out a receipt. I guess they no longer do thankfully, seeing as I wouldn't take it for a fiver or less. Not to mention that food and drink is almost always unrefundable and receipts are usually unrecyclable (even though people throw it in the recycling anyway and still gets accepted). London Buses used to give out paper receipt tickets until they stopped accepting cash in 2014 and most people who use the train now use tickets on their phones instead of physical paper ones. Or contactless if a journey is within London and some just outside it (such as Reading and Maidenhead).

For me, I've been told to print receipts for electricals and purchases over £20 and not ask them if they need it, I just give it to them anyway. At my local charity shops, they always ask me for a receipt and I tend to only get one if I need to go into another shop, have paid at least £10, have electricals or if the item is for someone else. At least receipts will save me in case the price says £1,40 but get charged double that seeing as they forgot to update the system. JuniperChill (talk) 13:27, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

In the receipt scenario it's really just a filler, like asking "Would you like a receipt today?" If you have to ask a question many many times there is a tendency to elaborate it a little. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 07:20, 27 July 2026 (UTC).

It's like the German überhaupt. It's not really about quantity. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:39, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

"Any at all" does fit better with a mass or plural noun, but is not restricted to it. "Would you like X at all?" sounds like a suggestion that I expect you to decline but feel I should offer anyway. Or because I think something is wrong. You order black coffee -- "Don't you want cream at all?", because I can't imagine anyone taking their coffee black. [Also, it makes a difference whether 'at all' is stressed.] But for receipts, you have presumably just declined them, so it would be odd for me to ask if you really meant it. Maybe for multiple receipts, because I want to verify that you don't want any of them, but for a single receipt that you've intentionally left on the counter, I might say 'don't forget your receipt', but 'at all' would suggest you're doing something wrong and I think you should reconsider your poor decision. — kwami (talk) 19:40, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

To me, "at all" is asking about the wanting, not the tax invoice; the mass-or-plural-noun doesn't refer to the quantity of receipts. The way I hear this phrase, it's basically "Do you have any bit of desire for a receipt". Consider how many people actively want receipts (i.e. they'll be disappointed or upset if they don't get one) versus how many people accept them because they're offered. I don't know about you, but if I'm handed a receipt without being asked, I'm likely to take it, even though I won't normally ask for a receipt if I'm not offered. It's kind of an implied "do you mind if I don't print you a the receipt". When I think back to the times when I've worked cash registers, both in the US and Australia, it seems like I would say something like "do you want your receipt" if I had it in hand already, or if I were cheery with an ordinary customer; "do you want it at all" is when someone shows signs of impatience (doesn't want to wait for the receipt to print) or for repeat customers who don't normally want theirs, and saying "at all" would be odd if I were already holding it. Nyttend (talk) 06:35, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

July 28

Huld/hold

Having recently listened to bits of Die Entführung aus dem Serail, I'm curious about "Huld" in this line, at the finale:

Wer so viel Huld vergessen kann, Den seh' man mit Verachtung an

It's easy to find the meaning of what Belmonte and his party are singing. But is "Huld" related to the obsolete English "hold", used by Tolkien in the nicknaming of Meriadoc as "Holdwine of the Mark"? About the latter word OED says

hold adj.; Old English had hyldo in the same sense = Old Saxon, Old High German huldí, German huld, noun of quality < hold adj.

But I'm unclear if the item cited by the OED is related to the current-although-archaic word in Belmonte's song. For this word, Wiktionary says

From Middle High German hulde, hülde, from Old High German huldī (“friendliness”), from Proto-West Germanic *hulþī.

So...is there an etymological relationship here, or are they false friends? Nyttend (talk) 06:18, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

Wiktionary says that hold in the OED archaic sense is “cognate with… German Huld (“grace, favour”).” Though, interestingly enough, Wiktionary gives two different conjugations of what appear to be the same word as the Proto-West Germanic roots for the two words: *hulþī for German Huld, *hulþaz for English archaic hold. To my admittedly untrained eye, it would seem these are noun/adjective conjugations? (Hulþaz, kindness, the noun; hulþi, kind, the adjective?) Whatever the case of the conjugations, it would seem these are the same word, the latest shared root word of the two. So, yes, they are related. Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 09:15, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

The other way round: hulþaz (> archaic English hold, modern German adj hold) is the adjective ; hulþi (> modern German Huld) is the derived noun, with an -i suffix typical of abstract noun formation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:28, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

Funny, if you'd not mentioned that those were proto-Germanic roots, I would have guessed that they were the Gothic forms, rather than those forms' ancestors. Thank you for the help. Nyttend (talk) 19:47, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

Goths and Arabs

My comment above about Gothic reminds me of another question in my mind. In the 1001 Nights, #539, we encounter a king named Mihrjan (at least in the Lyons translation I'm reading through) who has horses, and immediately I wondered about a Germanic connection: modern English mare, Old English mearh, Proto-Germanic marhaz, Gothic (again thinking Tolkien) appearing in the name Marhwini. Do we see any sustained contact between Arabs and Goths, aside from when they conquered Gothic peoples in North Africa and Spain? Or is this likely to be a false friend? Nyttend (talk) 19:47, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

Mihrjan is borrowed from Middle Persian Mihragan. Mihr is a form of the deity name Mithra. It is more Iranian than Germanic. ~2026-41824-87 (talk) 19:58, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

Turns out it’s honestly more closely related to the name of the Roman Pomerium than to mare (through the PIE root *mey-, “to bind”). Mihr comes from a borrowing of a Sanskrit word, which did evolve from Proto-Indo-European, so it does have Germanic cognates (which you can find here), though no direct relatives. Germanic tribes don’t appear to have spent enough time around Arabs for loanwords to have occurred. Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 00:38, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

For a Tolkien connection, surely mearas is a better fit? Matt Deres (talk) 13:46, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

But "mearh" is the singular of "mearas", and anyway it doesn't as easily resemble the Farsi name as does the name of the man of Rhovanion. Nyttend (talk) 20:35, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

Does our friend from Rhovanion have anything to do with horses? Matt Deres (talk) 15:34, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

Yes Marhwini was intended by Tolkien to be a name with the transparent (in Gothic) meaning 'friend of horses'. Eluchil404 (talk) 16:34, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

July 29

What does Trump say here (or even anything)?

What did Donald Trump presumably say on July 13, 2024 after the failed assassination attempt, in this moment before the agents took him down the stair? Of course, in this video there is no chance to hear it, but in this photographers video indeed we hear him a bit. (The time URL parameter for starting at the right point apparently does not work with short videos; the scene is at ~43 seconds). --KnightMove (talk) 07:42, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

Here is a regular link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwVzoae7zA8. I can't hear any sound emanating from POTUS's mouth after the shot.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:34, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

Thanks. Then at first, I set this video with time parameter. --KnightMove (talk) 10:17, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

I don't hear him because the speakers on my laptop don't work, but the journalist Salena Zito, an eyewitness, has Trump first calling for his shoes, then saying "USA", then "Fight! Fight! Fight!". Indeed she seems to have got a whole book out of that. --Antiquary (talk) 11:59, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

I perfectly agree with her [addition: You can see it in the main video a few seconds earlier - although I doubt that Trump really said "USA". He asked for his shoes, then "wait, wait, wait!" as he wanted to pose, then "Fight, fight, fight!"], but that specific moment was after he said all that [and when he was a few further, and away from the microphone].

Do we maybe have some lipreaders reading this? --KnightMove (talk) 12:39, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

People here are ignoring the reason Trump asked for his shoes. When most people are involved in traumatic events like this, they do not ask for their shoes, and very often leave them behind. Trump asked for them for a very specific reason. Viriditas (talk) 22:54, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Which would be what exactly? --KnightMove (talk) 08:12, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

Maybe I have posed the wrong question: Does he even say anything in this moment (again the video), or does he just take a deep breath? --KnightMove (talk) 14:40, 3 August 2026 (UTC)

Polly matete cry town is my daskalon.

In The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling we read "I remember my old schoolmaster, who was a prodigious great scholar, used often to say, Polly matete cry town is my daskalon. The English of which, he told us, was, That a child may sometimes teach his grandmother to suck eggs." Presumably "Polly matete cry town is my daskalon" is a mangling or mis-remembering of some Latin or Greek quotation. But what? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

The note in my copy says: "Source unknown, quoted by Cicero". I'll try to type in the original Greek, but the translation is given as "Many scholars are wiser than their teachers". --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:23, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

It's explained here as "a humorous transcription of πολλοὶ μαθηταὶ κρείττονες διδασκάλων, i.e., Many pupils are cleverer than their teachers, which occurs in Menander, Monostichs 651 Jaekel; Cicero, Letters to Friends 9.7.2; and Greek Anthology 11.176.5 (by Lucilius)". -- Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:28, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

I'm a bit disappointed with my copy now (Penguin, 1966). --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:36, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

Many thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 21:22, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

The quotation by Cicero can be seen here.

It appears that Partridge is indeed misremembering. His old schoolmaster probably said, "... is the daskalon". Perhaps Partridge was not among these polly matete.  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:41, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

at first I wondered how Eric Partridge came into this. —Antonissimo (talk) 03:18, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

Questions again

1. If the word strange is pronounced /streɪ̯nd͡ʒ/, then how would a word that is pronounced /streɪ̯ŋ/ be spelled?
2. Can the word seen be used as an adjective like in Seen crimes can be reported to the police (meaning the crimes that have been seen by people)
3. Can the word made be used as an adjective like in Made changes (meaning the changes that have been made)?
4. Is this correct: I can’t wait when it will be 2027, or should is be used in place of will be?
5. Are there any words in English where Greco-Latin φ/ph appears in English as ⟨f⟩, rather than ⟨ph⟩?
6. Why the word kolkhoz is pronounced as /kolkɔːz/, rather than /kolhɔːz/? How would it be pronounced if it were spelled kolhoz?
7. Do English speakers ever pronounce original /x/, /ç/, /χ/ and /ħ/ sounds as /h/ if they can’t pronounce the original sound, in foreign names?

--40bus (talk) 20:43, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

1.) Predicting English spelling is always a dangerous game but I might go with "strang" based on "bang". This could also be pronounced /stræeŋ/ or /strɑːŋ/ but most English spellings are simply not unambiguous.

2.) Not usually. The sentence would ordinarily be rephrased with a full verb "crimes that have been seen".

3.) Same as 2 above.

4.) Either verb tense is correct but the conjunction(?) should be "till" or "until".

6.) Because most English speakers don't know how to pronounce 'kh' (in Russian or really any language) and use a spelling pronunciation based on English phonemes. Without the 'k' I would pronounce it /kolhɔːz/ and expect most other English speakers to do the same.

7.) I am sure the answer is more than never but it depends mostly on the spelling used. The standard English approximation for /x/ and /χ/ is /k^(h)/, for /ħ/ /h/ was traditional but other approximations are sometimes seen especially when it is spelled 'ch', for /ç/ it varies by language and speaker; I would expect /k^(h)/ and /tʃ/ are at least as common as /h/. Eluchil404 (talk) 21:39, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

I can think of one possible exception for #3, which would be made man. GalacticShoe (talk) 00:03, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

1. straing perhaps.

2, 3. That horse may not be dead yet, keep whipping!

4. Either will do, if you replace when with until.

5. fantasy

6. Because most English-speakers do not know what kh means in transcription.

7. For Semitic languages, at least. —Antonissimo (talk) 21:56, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

1: Predicting the spelling of non-existing English words, even when allowed by phonotactics, is like walking on thin ice, but based on words like strain, my guess would be "straing".

2, 3: In English's closest relatives, it seems generally possible to use participles as adjectives without any restriction. At least in Dutch, it's common to extend those participles into entire subclauses (you can do this recursively), which are then used as adjectives (this is made easier by the verb-final word order marking the end of a subclause). English seems a bit more restrictive. Even if not ungrammatical, it often is unidiomatic to use a participle as an adjective.

7: English isn't Finnish. In Finnish, /h/ and /x/ may be seen as allophones and in the Slavic languages they are variations of the same too, but English's closest relatives normally make a threefold distinction between /k/, /x/ and /h/ (or something similar). English lost /x/ (except in some loans from Celtic languages in dialects where this Celtic influence is strong), turning it into various other sounds often written <gh>. When encountering /x/ from another language, English speakers tend to interpret it as /k/. Why /k/ and not /h/? Can't say, but making a distinction between /h/ and /x/ is pretty common. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:07, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

5 Filipino, sulfur (though not traditionally so spelled in the UK), griffin. --Antiquary (talk) 11:22, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

I have heard that in English, using present participles as adjectives such as in a coffee-drinking man (meaning a man who drinks coffee) is common but with past participles like in a coffee-drunk man (meaning a man who drank coffee) it is not similar. Where in English can such past participles be formed from compound verbs? --40bus (talk) 20:01, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

"A drunk man" sounds like an inebriated man, so "a coffee-drunk man" sounds like a man who's inebriated on coffee, and "a fish-eaten man" sounds like a man who has been eaten by fish. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:44, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

Milk is a commonly drunk beverage. Does this mean that milk has a drinking problem?  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:26, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

Some past participles are homonymous with adjectives derived from these past participles, while others are not. There is no rule governing this.

You can use past participles as participial adjectives when they are modified by an adverb:

• The job was finished → *the finished job (wrong)
• The job was recently finished → the recently finished job (fine)
• The sonata was performed → *a performed sonata (wrong)
• The sonata is rarely performed → a rarely performed sonata (fine)
• The cake is decorated → *a decorated cake (unusual)
• The cake was beautifully decorated → a beautifully decorated cake (fine)

(In the sense of having received awards, decorated is not only a past participle but also an adjective, so "a decorated cake" could mean, "an award-winning cake".)

Also, the agent of the verb of the (passive) past participle can sometimes turn into an adjective-forming modifier:

• The lad was struck by love → a love-struck lad
• The coat was eaten by moths → a moth-eaten coat

This is idiomatic, but is rather productive when the agent is oneself:

• The album was produced by herself → a self-produced album

 ​‑‑Lambiam 22:09, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

@Lambiam: I might be missing something subtle in your reply, but where I live (UK) "a decorated cake" is far from unusual. , , . I'm aware of a cultural difference between what constitutes "cake" between countries: could this be a factor in you assigning "unusual" to your example? Bazza 7 (talk) 08:47, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Maybe there is a cultural difference, not in what is a cake but in how a cake should be. Where I'm from, the kind of cakes that are usually decorated are not conventionally sold in undecorated make-up; one would have to specifically order one.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:17, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

In English (and, AFAIK, the other Germanic and Romance languages), the past participle of a transitive verb, when used as an adjective, defaults to a passive voice (skipping over some details wrt impersonal passives etc.). So, a drunk man, when not referring to a man who's had too much alcohol, must refer to a man who has been liquefied and then consumed. You may be able to form an active voice by combining it with the present participle of the auxiliary that forms the perfect tense active, but it doesn't look like this is supported over the entire language family. It doesn't seem idiomatic in English.

The present participle defaults to the active voice. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:03, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

If a drunk man refers to ”a man who has been drunk”, how would then ”a man who drank” be changed to a participle + noun construction? In Finnish, both present and past participles have both active and passive forms, and ”a man who drank” is juonut mies and ”a man who has been drunk” is juotu mies. --40bus (talk) 07:04, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

@40bus: The phrase a drunk man contains no information about timing, so it refers to a man who is, has been, was and still is, or will be in the future, drunk (or drunken). You continue to assume that all grammatical constructions you enjoy in Finnish have direct equivalents in English, despite other contributors' efforts to point out that this is not the case.

• a man who drank = a person who has imbibed tea, coffee, water, milk, beer...; also colloquially a person who imbibes alcoholic drinks to excess
• a man who has been drunk = a previously drunken man = a person who has imbibed alcoholic drinks to excess but no longer is inebriated
• a man who is drunk = a drunken man = a person who has imbibed alcoholic drinks to excess and is inebriated
• a man who is drinking = a drinking man = a person who is imbibing tea, coffee, water, milk, beer...; also colloquially a person who habitually I'm ibes alcoholic drinks to excess

Bazza 7 (talk) 09:01, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

July 31

Roman Numerals

Why do Roman numerals lack a symbol for zero? ~2026-42339-28 (talk) 04:51, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Because the Western Classical World did not come up with the ideas of zero as a mathematical number requiring a symbol rather than a blank space until quite late, partly because it did not use Positional notation. It is very difficult to use Roman numerals for positional notation: try writing out a complicated calculation such as a long division substituting Roman numerals for Arabic, such as we now use.

The early Western scholars who did use an equivalent to zero (such as Ptolomy in the second century CE, did not use Roman numerals for calculations. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 05:46, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Not only did the ancient Romans lack an idea of zero as a mathematical number, but they had no concept of zero as a number at all. In response to the question, "How many people have responded?", one can say in English, "Null people have responded" or "Zero people have responded". Speakers of Classical Latin couldn't do much better than "Nemo respondit" or "Nullus respondit" ("No one has responded"). Only in Medieval times did Dionysius Exiguus repurpose the word nulla, a shortening of nulla quantitas ("no quantity"), to serve as a numeral, allowing one to write, "Nulla persona respondit."  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:09, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Dress

Greetings! What are dresses that look like shirts but longer called? ~2026-35599-34 (talk) 19:12, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Maybe a Kaftan? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:25, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

You may be thinking of a shift dress or chemise, but more details or a picture might help us be more specific. Eluchil404 (talk) 19:51, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Maybe the OP can find a pic of Avril Lavigne wearing one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:02, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Are you thinking of shirtdresses? GalacticShoe (talk) 20:25, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

@Eluchil404 Kinda like the dress worn by Nicole Richie at the 2010 Oscars, but shorter. Also this one by Elizabeth Olsen https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fvev0omzwd5bh1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D510%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dc9ab8d2efad4eeaf910e4c8ea49a3f49d44fd3a4 ~2026-35599-34 (talk) 12:06, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

I dont get it. That example doesn't look like a shirt at all to me. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:28, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

It looks like a normal dress. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:58, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

Like Nicole Richie at the 2010 Oscars? You mean this dress, but shorter? To me, that seems distinctly unshirtlike. John M Baker (talk) 14:17, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

Another possibility is A-line (clothing). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:01, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

@John M Baker I find it shirtlike because it covers her shoulders. Most dresses don't. Also, dresses usually begin above cleavage. This one is full body. ~2026-35599-34 (talk) 16:52, 3 August 2026 (UTC)

August 1

Time expressions

1. Does English ever use the word ”three quarters” to describe a period of 45 minutes, like Finnish ”kolme varttia”? Would anyone say ”I come back three quarters from now”?
2. When 24-hour clock is used in public transportation announcements, is 21:00 ”twenty-one oh oh” and 0:25 ”oh twenty-five”?
3. Is ”half a day” commonly used to describe a period of 12 hours?
4. Is ”half a year” commonly used to describe a period of 6 months?
5. Is a period of 15 seconds ever called ”quarter of a minute”?

--40bus (talk) 14:16, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

1. Not in normal English.

3. Can be.

4. Can be.

5. Not very often.

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:57, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

1.) The English expression is "three quarters of an hour" and is rather old fashioned but not unknown. The "of an hour" is however never dropped when referring to a period of time.

3.) "Half a day" is a common enough phrase but doesn't mean 12 hours so much as half a work day or all morning or all afternoon. It would not be used to describe a 12 hour work shift, for instance, at least not commonly.

4.) Yes. But the meaning can be either general 5-7 months or precise depending on the usage.

5.) Not as any kind of ordinary idiom, but certainly not impossible. Personally, I strongly associate "quarter" time references with analog clocks versus the precise numerical displays of modern digital ones. When I imagine someone timing a quarter of a minute I see them using an old analog watch with a smoothly moving second hand. I don't know if that's universal. Eluchil404 (talk) 15:05, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

"Three quarters of an hour" is still current in British English, but agree that it's never shortened. Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

2. Not usually. It would normally be rendered in hundreds, like "twenty one hundred hours". For early hours, the zero in front may or may not be used (zero seven hundred hours or oh seven hundred hours or oh seven hundred, etc.)

3/4 - yes, but only context would tell you how precisely those things were meant. If I broke my foot "half a year ago", it could mean anything from four months to eight months ago (or thereabouts). If we wanted precision, it would always be rendered in units, not fractions: 182 days ago, 12 hours 15 seconds ago, etc. And as Eluchil404 said above, it might not refer to a full clock day at all. Matt Deres (talk) 15:44, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

5. Here are examples of a time interval of 15 seconds being called "a quarter minute": , , .  ​‑‑Lambiam 16:06, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

1) "I'll be about an hour and three quarters" is normal, as is "I'll be about three quarters of an hour", but "I'll be about three quarters" is not. You have to get the "hour" in there somewhere. Nothing old-fashioned about "three quarters of an hour". DuncanHill (talk) 18:05, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

”One hour and a three quarters” sounds like a full hour of 60 minutes and then additional three quarters of an hour (45 minutes), thus a period of 105 minutes. Is this phrase ever used to mean that number of minutes? --40bus (talk) 20:31, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

"an hour and three quarters" means "105 minutes". "One hour and a three quarters" wouldn't be said by a native speaker. It would probably be understood though. DuncanHill (talk) 20:33, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

2) As one example, ScotRail use an automated announcement system which reads 21:00 as "twenty-one hundred". I've never heard an 00:25 announcement because trains normally don't run that late here. However, they released all the announcement recordings as of 2022 as a result of a FOIA request, and the section with hour numbers goes "midnight", "oh one", "oh two"... "twenty-three" with no "oh oh", which suggests it'd say "midnight twenty-five". (Which then makes me wonder whether it would read 00:00 as "midnight" or "midnight hundred". There's no special case for "midday"; it says "twelve hundred".) Adam Sampson (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

Not Scottish, nor British, so I suppose it's possible the Scots have some ideosyncratic way of talking about times that I don't know about, I am fairly sure they do not say "midnight hundred", because "midnight" only means exactly 12:00/00:00 (or sometimes even 24:00), but not as a prefix for the entire hour. I do not know (nor can guess) what they do with 25 after midnight trains. Also it makes sense why they would call midnight "midnight" but not noon "noon": with 24 hour times 12:00 is unambiguous. And so is 00:00, but there's no good way to say that time aloud other than "midnight".

With 12 hour time "12:00" is problematic because it's not actually correct to use am or pm for 12:00 as they literally mean "before noon" and "after noon" respectively. But noon is neither and midnight is both. ~2026-40817-33 (talk) 01:51, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

August 2

French regional accent

Video is of a French guy reacting to a music performance. Can anyone tell what part of France the guy is from? Is there a name for his dialect? Is it plausible that he'd have trouble understanding French as spoken in other parts of France? I don't mean obscure dialects, I mean Paris vs Marseilles or that sort of thing. Thanks. ~2026-42295-00 (talk) 05:55, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

The accent sounds pretty standard to me and easily understandable. In another video he says he's the founder of a company called teletech; googling around then links him to Dijon. --Wrongfilter (talk) 06:41, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks, yes, I can (somewhat) understand him too, while I can't understand Quebecois French at all. The video guy also reacted to a song with French lyrics performed by a non-French speaker, complaining that he couldn't understand the lyrics without reading them from the captions. But other French-speaking reactors have said the singer mostly did fine. So I'm trying to get a sense of how much the video guy is being a snob, and how much it might be a regional thing. ~2026-42295-00 (talk) 07:39, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

There is no "standard" French accent. There are, however, around eight or so regional dialects, and you can generally only place a French speaker to within a hundred or even two hundred miles or so. It's not like England, where the accent can change quite considerably every 30 miles or so. I would suggest that the speaker in the clip is definitely not from the north, including Paris, Normandy, the Loire valley, Brittany or the eastern Champagne region. He is also not from the south, either SE around Marseilles or SW towards Toulouse. There's always the French-speaking Belgians, also a very distinct dialect once you have heard it. Before reading the comments above, I thought he's probably from the middle of France, perhaps from the Midi: and Dijon certainly makes sense. Beware following generalisations! Don't forget that the whole of French discussion is based around disagreeing - in an intellectual way - with your interlocutor. The French are naturally argumentative. They are very particular and critical about attempts by foreigners to speak their semi-sacred tongue: I don't think he's being snobby in the slightest, certainly not being disagreeable: he's just being French. MinorProphet (talk) 22:58, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

I have to disagree. There is a "standard" French accent, that is the accent of most French people (Continental France). We say that these persons have "no accent". It is impossible to say from what part of France is a person with no accent. The speaker in the video has "no accent". There are regional accents. In this case the speaker has not the burgundian accent (Dijon is in Burgundy). Moreover dialect and accent are different concepts. However speakers of French dialects (there are becomming fewer and fewer) have an accent. AldoSyrt (talk) 09:57, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

Stereotypical Swedish

Apologies to any Swedish people reading this. I've been reading American joke books from the 1930s and 40s. Joke books at that time were heavily expurgated in terms of their sexual content, but had no trouble at all with the most vicious racial stereotyping; Black characters were portrayed about the same as they would in a minstrel show. Back then, Swedes were often given the parts that later went to the Polish in Polish jokes a few decades later. In an attempt to mimic or mock a Swedish accent, the word "bane" gets liberally used and I'm not sure what it's supposed to represent. At times it could possibly be meant to represent the word "being", but in other contexts that wouldn't seem to make sense. For example, in the punchline to this joke, the Swedish maid misunderstands what dickering means and replies, "Don't you tank that bane do some good. I bane raspactable 'oman; and I bane need the money, too!"
Now, all the racial caricatures presented are just the worst kind of stereotypes, but the written text at least faithfully represents the racist way the joke is meant to be told orally. So what are they trying to indicate here? Do Swedish people often insert "bane" into their speech? Is it supposed to be a heavily accented English word? I've just provided the one example, but it pops up all over - like all the Irish saying begorra. Matt Deres (talk) 15:15, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

Here is a nice small piece (a 'squib' as linguists would call it nowadays) about this topic: https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/451586.pdf –Austronesier (talk) 15:28, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

Interesting! Thank you. It's not an answer per se, but I can at least be assured that I am very far from the first person to be puzzled by the word. Matt Deres (talk) 16:43, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

Alright, I am a native Swede, and I can't come up with any common Swedish word it would credibly imply. I guess it is some way of approximating various forms of the verb be, such as 'being' or 'been'. One strained explanation is that words like 'being' and 'been' pronounced as if they were Swedish words (with Swedish orthography) would be pronounced with an [e:]-sound, like in French café, which then would have been approximated with the CaCe-spelling. Also, conjugation of Swedish verbs is generally somewhat simpler than in English, with Swedish basically lacking conjugation by person and number, but the ubiquity of the word - to me - just looks like lazy comedic shorthand. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:52, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you. Lazy comedic shorthand is very likely. Matt Deres (talk) 13:50, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Street names in Quebec

Are there any places in Quebec where there streets have official English names on street signs, which appear alongside, or even above or without, French names, such as "Rue Principale" and "Main Street" on the same sign? --40bus (talk) 22:13, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

No. Streets have one official name, so as not to create confusion for mail delivery, first responders and the like. Many English street names were translated into French when they were generic (i.e. Main Street becoming rue Principale or Church Street becoming rue de l'Église), but not when they were proper names. If translated, only the French name remained official. Xuxl (talk) 14:51, 3 August 2026 (UTC)

Are there any English names in widespread use in areas with large Anglophone population, such as Montreal West and Nunavik (with Inuit names in addition in the latter)? And as New Brunswick is bilingual, do street names in any city in that province have bilingual English-French names? --40bus (talk) 18:22, 3 August 2026 (UTC)

Not in North America, but Brussels actually has bilingual street signs, in Vlaams and French. Some info to be found here: Francization_of_Brussels. Lectonar (talk) 09:44, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Likewise parts of Wales and, surprisingly perhaps, Cornwall have bilingual street-name signs. There are Welshmen who speak little or no English, but I'd be very surprised if that was true of even the most nationalist Cornishman. --Antiquary (talk) 10:10, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

And while 40bus obviously knows this, others may not be aware that street name signs are by law bilingual in the parts of Finland where the minority language (usually Swedish, but Sámi in the far north) is spoken by at least 8% of the population. When visiting Helsinki in 2017 I (being English) found it easier to navigate on foot by reading the Swedish names, because both languages are Germanic and have some affinities. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-41275-62 (talk) 13:55, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

A similar situation happens in South Tyrol in Italy where German (more specifically Austrian German) is a co-official language of that region. Italian is the main language spoken in Bolzano but elsewhere in the region, German is the main language. Road signs are also bilingual. And regarding Finland, only 5% of Finns speak Swedish as their native language, so its just above average. JuniperChill (talk) 12:56, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

While I agree with the explanation that a street needs a single official name, I just realized that many streets have both a numeric name and a word name. For example, I grew up on Highway 152, which was also known as Barry Road. Some people called it 152. Some called it Barry. Some are popularly multi-named. CA-1 is the PCH. US 441 is the Blue Ridge Parkway. Visitors call it the Blue Ridge, but locals call it the 441. Perhaps it is accepted that roads have a number and name, but they can't have two names (unless you live in the Southeast where the street names tend to change every few blocks ... Turn right on Orleans, it will turn into Tobias Gadsden and then turn into William Kennerty, you know the O-T-W stretch). ~2026-41824-87 (talk) 11:25, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

August 3

Old English

What would ‘I come in peace’ (or something to that effect) be in Old English? (Around the 1050s, and near London if that makes any dialectal difference.) Unfortunately, Google Translate doesn’t appear to have Old English.

In addition, any general pointers on ways Old English’s grammar structure differs from Modern English’s that might trip up someone trying to translate sentences? (I’m aware of the Old English grammar article (which I have partly read through), but I’m asking if there’s any differences in particular that might be especially problematic for a speaker of Modern English.) Thanks! Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 08:11, 3 August 2026 (UTC)

The inflections (cases, gender agreement, strong/weak adjectives, modes) and verb-second word order in Old English were greatly simplified on the way to Modern English. In this specific simple sentence this is not a factor; a word-by-word translation works: iċ cume in friþ. (The dot on the ⟨c⟩ is a modern convention and would not have appeared in an Old English manuscript.) In this case, since the preposition in is used with the accusative case, friþ has to be in the accusative, but for this word the accusative has the same form as the nominative. For the synonym sibb the accusative form is different; if this is substituted, it needs to be altered to sibbe.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:24, 3 August 2026 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be friþe (dative), since it's the inessive/non-illative meaning of in (i.e. "in", not "into")? I'm not actually sure in would be the most appropriate preposition; mid friþe seems to be attested in Old English, though in the sense of "depart in peace" rather than "come in peace"; "on friþe wunedon" ('they lived in peace') is also attested in West Saxon. But none of the combinations of preposition+friþe I've seen seem to match the exact intended semantics here, where "in peace" means "having peaceful intentions"; they all seem to mean "enjoying a state of peace" instead. Maybe for the intention meaning they would have used some adverbial expression instead, like gesibsumlíce? (Or, possibly, Old English folks just never went anywhere "in peace" at all, and didn't have a word for it.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:43, 3 August 2026 (UTC)

You are probably right. It is hard to tell, though. Also in the American English of 1951, the semantics of in following come is unclear in this phrase, so we cannot be fully sure why Klaatu used a prepositional adverbial instead of proclaiming "I come peacefully", and also not which case he would have used, had he landed in 11th-century London. In 1951, the US was one of the belligerents in the Korean War, so the visitor may have been in a peaceful state of mind but his landing site was not in a state of peace. The syntactically nearest I can think of in current English is "We come in good faith", which basically means the same as Klaatu's "I come ... with good will".  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:58, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

August 4

Fucken vs. fuckin'

I'm reading the novel The Tribute by John Byron (2019). It's very well written and researched, has a very engaging plot, and I'm constantly in the state of wanting to know what happens next. It has a wealth of technical medical terms, and various cultural references to Renaissance personages like Vesalius, etc. I'm at page 229 and have yet to detect a single spelling or grammatical error. (He does refer to Leonardo da Vinci as "Da Vinci" as if this were his surname, but that's not uncommon.)

But there's a problem with the swear words he has his characters say. Or, more to the point, the spelling of one of those words. "Fucken" crops up quite early in the piece. After a few dozen fuckens I quietened my inner editor and accepted that this has become one of the ways of spelling fuckin'. But then, he has one character use fuckin', another use fucking, and then all three variants have a party. The first character to use fuckin' says it three times, then reverts to fucken, and later says fucking – there goes my theory that he's using the different spellings to mark his characters.

So, I'm left wondering whether there's a difference in meaning between fuckin' and fucken. I'm in little doubt that the author has deliberately chosen these different spellings, because he's so careful with his wording and spelling generally.

• Another person encountered the same issue in 2004.
• Wiktionary just says it's an alternative spelling of fuckin'.
• Urban Dictionary says, inter alia: childish spelling for the adjectival/adverbial intensive "fucking". Easy way to identify you're chatting with an illiterate &/or child.

I could accept that last quite readily, were it not for the fact that Byron is far from an illiterate or a child.

Any ideas on this? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:49, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

I think your post is the first time I've ever seen "fucken". Fucken Awesome question. Is it perhaps an Australianism? DuncanHill (talk) 22:02, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

I've been seeing it on social media for over 15 years. That's obviously become the Great 21st Century Word Foundry. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:45, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Would fucken or fuckin have different intonation in the Sydney patois? Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:17, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Not being a Sydneysider, I don't know. But having spent much time there, I rather doubt it. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:45, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Might be able to ask him about it. [https://www.simonandschuster.com.au/authors/John-Byron/235314559] Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:29, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Based entirely on my limited experience of Australian films, I would suggest that fucken' might be more of a random interjection with little aggressive intent, whereas fuckin' is perhaps more emphatic, with the voice more obviously lifting at the end of the phrase. MinorProphet (talk) 23:15, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks. (I was in my mind sounding it out as fucken would have the stress on the second syllable FukEN compared to the other, fuk'n). Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:20, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

The only thing I can think of for an author to intentionally vary the spelling of a term in a character's direct speech, corresponding to subtly different pronunciations, is that in the narrative the character themself is varying the pronunciation. Not having read any part of the novel I can only speculate as to why the character from the novel would do such a thing, but we're not allowed to engage in speculation. Among candidate reasons is that a speaker may change register depending on the occasion, such as whom they are addressing, but if the variations occur within a contiguous block of speech addressed to an unvarying audience, this can be ruled out. Another potential reason, perhaps far-fetched but not unreasonable, is that the speaker is imitating the way various others pronounce the term, so that they are as it were quoting these others.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:27, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

My first thought - as with some above - is that this is meant to show slight differences in pronunciation. It wouldn't be accents since the same character uses different spellings, but perhaps different vowel stresses depending on the situation (?), but I think if that were the case, you'd see it in more than the one word. Like, he might be thinken about fucken in one scene, but in a different context he'd be talkin' about fuckin'. If that's not what's going on, I'm a bit stumped. Matt Deres (talk) 12:52, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

And would someone from New Zealand pronounce fuckin' the same way an Aussie would? Would fuckin' in New Zealand sound closer to fucken? ~2026-40817-33 (talk) 00:55, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

Off-topic: No idea, but ignoring The Quiet Earth, the unsung Shaker Run is one of my fave road movies ever, especially if you like your Trans-Am in pink... MinorProphet (talk) 01:24, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

I have to confess to a partiality for Australian dashcam vids. A few years ago the worst thing anyone said was, "Idiot!" Now, it tends to be "Fucking idiot!" with variations. Compare from 5:38, perhaps "What are you fuckin' doing, you fucken' muppet?" And from 7:38 - "What an absolute fuckin' cockhead! Fucken' Jesus, chum. What the fuuuck?" MinorProphet (talk) 01:08, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

Another Australian here. There are no doubt different pronunciations of the word in question here. Are we seeing attempts by the author to reflect that? It's a bit class based, with the "ing" ending coming from more upper class swearers. HiLo48 (talk) 02:00, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

August 5

Alphabetical ordering of people's names

What How do cultures without surnames list/order people? Indonesia seems to be a particularly chaotic situation; Indonesian names says most (but not all) western Indonesians don't have them, but eastern Indonesians generally do. Clarityfiend (talk) 13:28, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

In Iceland, many people do not have a surname. They sort by given (first) name. The call directory for a hospital I did work for there was mostly just first names, sorted alphabetically. Not everyone has an alphabet like English. In Myanmar, they use a script (abugida). The script has order itself (same as our alphabet having order), so they can sort their names by abugida order. In China, they use characters. They do not spell out words. Names are usually sorted by radical and stroke order. They usually have family names and personal names. The family name comes first, so you would see all the Wu people listed under the radical kou (mouth) with a stroke order of seven. As with memorizing the order of letters in the alphabet, Chinese have memorized the order of the radicals. Japanese uses both hiragana and katakana. When working there, I had to learn the kana order for their symbols to look up items in lists. It is similar to sorting in alphabetical order. This made me wonder about the case where a culture has no surname (so they likely sort by first name) and they do not use letters, scripts, or characters. That indicates that they do not write. So, an oral-only culture, they wouldn't write down a list of names. Perhaps they will follow the practice of many African communities which sort by birth order. Older people are first and younger people are last. That does cause age inflation. A similar age-sorting practice was common in Abkhazia. The result was that almost everyone was well over 100 years old because every time they had to be sorted into a line they would add a year or two to their age. ~2026-41824-87 (talk) 14:13, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

In Indonesia, it seems to be common with people having only one name, and thus, that is the one used for listing and ordering (as per the Latin alphabetical order). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:19, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

Re: Japan, out of curiosity, do you happen to remember what the kana order was for lists? When I learned kana it was arranged as a two dimensional grid, with the vowels as columns and consonants (or lack thereof) as rows and (syllable-final) n ( ん / ン ) by itself. So I'm curious if the "list order" is the same. Did all of the open vowel names come before all the names that begin with consonants? I remember the vowel order was A I U E O. ~2026-40817-33 (talk) 04:50, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

The grid you likely saw is the order. It is ordered left to right, top row down to bottom row.

あ い う え お

か き く け こ

さ し す せ そ

た ち つ て と

な に ぬ ね の

は ひ ふ へ ほ

ま み む め も

や ゆ よ

ら り る れ ろ

わ を ん ~2026-41824-87 (talk) 11:00, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

Also: in Iceland, is everyone sorted by given name, or are the people who do have surnames sorted by their surname? ~2026-40817-33 (talk) 05:10, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

My only experience is name lists for a hospital system. They sorted everyone by first name. I have a first and last name. I was sorted by by first name even though my last name was listed. Of note, almost everyone had their name followed by their mother's name with either 'son' or 'dottir' added. So, if you are John, daughter of Martha, your name would be listed as John Marthadottir, sorted into the J's. ~2026-41824-87 (talk) 11:03, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, I believe just about everyone born on Iceland has a patronymic (more commonly, rather than a matronymic as explained), rather than a proper surname. If you want to become a proper Icelandic citizen, you would need to change your name . Also, for transgender purposes, apparently it was now accepted to add a -bur rather than a -son or dottir to your patronymic. (Which in context, would mean "child".) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:42, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

Isn't using just given names horribly inefficient? A popular first name would lead to massively long lists (say the non-English equivalent of John). Clarityfiend (talk) 23:51, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

Worse than a list of Smiths? —Antonissimo (talk) 00:58, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

Yes, the Smiths all have first names as well. All the Johns are just called John. ~2026-43309-20 (talk) 07:52, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

In a culture where ordering by first name is common, mononymous persons would be listed by their first name. In a culture where ordering by last name is common, they would be listed by their last name.  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:02, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

August 6

Jason Atta Kwei Arday

Jason Arday, of Ghanaian heritage, is much in the news. His full name is Jason Atta Kwei Arday. Are "Atta" and "Kwei" given names, or some form of patronymic or similar? In what language? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:35, 6 August 2026 (UTC)